You guys use your subs for movies only ?

[kingnothing]

hello all,

i just got my rf-7's and they have excellant base. i'm hearing bass playing on my music that i've never heard before. So, i'm curious if you guys use your subs for music and how much sweeter does it sound - currently it sounds like pete way is in the room - but i want to know if petes in your room and having a cocktail with you - need to know before i think about putting a sub on my wish list

thanks, bob

[Jay481985]

asking the two channel guys and they would say no need for a subwoofer.

But the fact that the RF-7 are rated to around 32 hertz means that

wuzzy subs need not apply. Most subwoofers will actually hinder than

help the sound as most subwoofers drop fast at 32 hertz. Unless you

want to cross the rf-7 at a higher frequency there is no need. But if

you get a capable sub that can hit to say 20 hertz with authority then

your all business.

[kingnothing]

thanks jay - i did some looking and it looks like to get down to 30 herts i need to spend some money - is that there much dif with the klipsch rsw-12 and the 15 ? i read the specs right the 12's are 22 hz + the 15's are at 19 hz- ebay has the 12's running at $1000 + the big boys at $1300 - you would think with so much less wood, and drivers used, they would be cheaper than a single RF-7 (lmao)

bob

[Bruinsrme]

I read this post shortly after it was posted and meant to reply.

I am in the camp of using the sub as much as possible. Sometimes I listen with the sub off because I am too lazy to walk an extra 2 feet to turn on the sub. Other times the volume is very low so it doesn't matter if the sub is on or off.

If the sub is not calibrated properly it can make the lows sound sloppy.

Scott

[Jay481985]

On top of Bruinsrme I forgot to mention that a proper sub can put less

strain on the rf-7 I mean, if you say cross the sub at the usual 80

hertz with the rf-7 the rf-7 woofers do not have to strain as much (the

speaker cone moving) to make the upper frequencies. It is known and

fact that the further away the speaker cone moves the more the

distortion follows so in fact a proper sub can drastically improve bass

response by reducing the load on the woofers.

Also I would not trust ebay as much. I hear that the rsw 12 and

rsw 15 are negliable on the frequency, really when was the last time

you went well I can hear that 19 hertz wave on one system and go well i

can only hear the 22 hertz on this....... The RSW 15 just can go

louder. My dealer around me is selling the rsw 15 for 1300 plus tax and

I believe 1000-1000 for the rsw 12. New in the box and full warantee as

they are an authorized dealer. I would actually if you want buy it at

cost and ship at cost just to get a good status at the store [] hey I

want to be able to goto the store the next time and be given that extra

discount cause I am a return customer!

[kingnothing]

thanks jay for the nice offer but like i said, these are for my wish list only for now - unless i make the top table a couple times this weekend playing party poker (lol) Life is wonderful - what better than to play poker with sweet klipsch speakers playing rock n roll

[wuzzzer]

I'm in the two channel guy group and I recently disconnected my sub to see how my RF-7s sounded without it. Yeah, that lasted about 5 seconds.

Sub on!

[MrMcGoo]

I run my sub 100% of the time. Late at night I turn it down, but it is always on. The Rf-7s can't make 32 Hz in many rooms with most amps. Hence, a good sub helps. I use an RSW-15 and plan to add an RT-12d when I can afford it.

Both movies and music benefit from a properly tuned sub.

The folks that do not use a sub are ok for most music, but for movies a capable sub is a must.

Bill

[garymd]

I'm in the "sub-off" camp with my cornwalls. There are a few recordings that sound better with it on but not many. Since I got Dean's Super B crossovers, the bass is so deep and tight I can't imagine using the sub. There are a few songs like The Moody Blues "Question" that utilize very low frequencies and I'll turn it on for that song. There are a couple others but in general, the RSW12 adds nothing and generally sounds worse when on to my ears.

Movies are a different story. Also, when using my HT receiver for SACDs, I use the sub but that only happens about once a year. The Scott sounds so much better in 2-channel, there's really no point except to utilize the 5.1 which sounds like crap in comparison.

[Jay481985]

Well the cornwalls dig deeper is all... How is the Heresy's? sold?

[garymd]

Still yours if you want them Jay but I think you're all talk.[]

[Jay481985]

I hate you gary! sooo many choices!

[DrWho]

I'm in the "sub-off" camp with my cornwalls.

There are a few recordings that sound better with it on but not many.

You're just listening to the 'wrong' music []

I say it in jest, but there's an important point that I wanted to

extrapolate on. "What is the importance of bandwidth?" The range for

human hearing often thrown around is 20Hz-20kHz. And the usual argument

goes something along the lines that the playback system doesn't need to

exceed the bandwidth of our own hearing ability because we won't be

able to hear the difference anyway (ie, who cares if the system can

play a 50kHz note - we aren't able to detect the difference). The

RF-7's can do 30Hz-20kHz which means you are missing the bottom 10Hz of

the audible range (about an octave) - this is of course assuming that

the RF-7's can play down to 30Hz "well" (more on that later). The only

time you're going to notice the absence of that octave is when the

source material has information that low. For example, the flute is a

very high frequency instrument; it simply isn't going to sound

different when you turn the subwoofer on and off. Likewise, you aren't

going to notice a properly integrated subwoofer if your music doesn't

have information below 30Hz (just as a reference, the bottom string of

an electric bass is 32Hz). So the most important question here is what

music do you listen to? This will determine whether or not you need the

subwoofer.

So how well can the RF-7's play down to 30Hz? This is where we get into

the realm of nonlinearities and distortion. Because the woofers on the

RF-7's have to play up to 2kHz, there are going to be issues of

frequency modulation distortion (FMD) at louder volumes. Some people

refer to this as doppler distortion. What happens is the woofer needs

to move more for the lower notes, but because it is also reproducing

high frequencies at the same time, the high frequencies "ride along"

the low notes and will change their pitch because of the doppler effect

(higher pitch when moving towards you and lower pitch when moving

away). If you get a sub, you can reduce the bandwidth being reproduced

by the woofers from 30Hz-2kHz to say 80Hz-2kHz...resultinig in 1/4 the

FMD. And the audible effect is cleaner midrange.

I personally listen to a lot of music with material that goes as low as

10Hz and I'd say 80% of my music goes below 30Hz so I need a subwoofer

just to fill in that last octave. However, I still run a sub on that

last 20% of music because it cleans up the midrange - not because I

need the LF extension.

Btw, the reason good subwoofers cost so much is because people want the

enclosures to be small. It is hard to reproduce low frequencies in a

small cabinet, so the subwoofer manufacturers have to way over-engineer

the motors. And I know what you're thinking...the RSW-15 isn't a small

cabinet! Well just imagine how much bigger it'd be if they went with a

cheaper driver [] Eventually you get to a point where the wood and

shipping totally outweighs the benefits of putting more money into the

motor!

So just to sum it all up...yes, your midrange can always benefit from a

subwoofer. And whether or not the extra low frequency extension will be

audible is entirely dependant upon the music to which you listen.

And just to cover all the important ground...the magnitude of the

midrange benefit is going to be very dependant on the mains you're

using. For example, lascalas and khorns are entirely horn loaded...and

one of the benefits of hornloading is a reduction in FMD (because the

cone has to move less for the same SPL). So the guys with similar speakers

who also don't listen to music that goes below their speakers' cutoff aren't going

to benefit much from a subwoofer at all - I would argue that they could always benefit, but you start getting

into issues of diminishing returns (ie, there are probably better ways

they could spend their money). The paths to audio nirvana are

many...audio theory is just a tool to help you get there.

Hope this helps.

[psg]

My mains get full-range, and my receiver sends 40 Hz and below to the sub as well. I could probably turn the sub off on most music that I listen to without noticing, but sometimes it's a very good thing. The sub (Hsu STF-3) isn't dialed hot at all. It's at calibration level.

[HTMAN21]

thanks jay - i did some looking and it looks like to get down to 30 herts i need to spend some money - is that there much dif with the klipsch rsw-12 and the 15 ? i read the specs right the 12's are 22 hz + the 15's are at 19 hz- ebay has the 12's running at $1000 + the big boys at $1300 - you would think with so much less wood, and drivers used, they would be cheaper than a single RF-7 (lmao)

bob

No doubt you will need a good sub to keep up with the 7's. I tried some pretty good subs and settled on a 15" veleodyne. Just before Christmas I got the bug to try something else. I bought a Sub 12 and it is as good as the velodyne at much less cost. It also outperforms the higher end Klipsch subs. This was to hold me over until my SVS 20-39 + arrived.

I doubt that I will ever search for another sub after owning the SVS and it does not cost $1000.

[DrWho]

I bought a Sub 12 and it is as good as the velodyne at much less cost. It also outperforms the higher end Klipsch subs.

lol, the sub-12 is a great sub for the money, but there is no way in the world it can touch the RSW-12, RSW15, or KW-120. And to which velodyne were you comparing? As far as I know, there are only 3 velodyne lines with 15" drivers and I know the DD and HGS series are amongst the top out there...

Anyone have a link to the Nousaine subwoofer comparison chart? It hasn't been updated in a while, but a lot of the subs in question are on it.

[Speedball]

With classical music a sub makes a huge difference. Amazing how much bass is available way down deep, my svs 2039+ is a monster and has to be watched for adding too much bass.

[wstrickland1]

I bought a Sub 12 and it is as good as the velodyne at much less cost. It also outperforms the higher end Klipsch subs.

lol, the sub-12 is a great sub for the money, but there is no way in the world it can touch the RSW-12, RSW15, or KW-120. And to which velodyne were you comparing? As far as I know, there are only 3 velodyne lines with 15" drivers and I know the DD and HGS series are amongst the top out there...

Anyone have a link to the Nousaine subwoofer comparison chart? It hasn't been updated in a while, but a lot of the subs in question are on it.

They have a DLS 5000 or something like that that has a 15" woofer for around $700. I was looking at the 12" version at one time.. they are pretty good subs from what I understand but I held out for the RSW 15

[dblue]

Just a quick aside here guys...

Just because the RF-7's are rated to 32Hz does not mean they go down flat to 32Hz. If you get a sub with a strong flat response down to about 25 Hz, your are going to be gaining a significant increase in the spl from 25Hz to 40Hz. I'd be willing to bet that the RF-7's play 32Hz at at least a 6 Db rolloff (depending on the room of course). For example, my RF3's are rated to 40Hz, but I can tell you that they don't play 40Hz nearly as strongly as they play 80Hz.

Just my 2 cents, I believe that any system can benefit from a sub, especially if you enjoy high quality recordings.

[TheEAR]

First and last..

A quality subwoofer that is properly set up can be ON all the time,adding ONLY deep bass the mains struggle with(or fee them of the task trying to reproduce it). SO HT and music my subs only add what mains would only try to reproduce.

And why not offload the mains when you have a sub(quality sub and properly set up).