Hardhead Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Gentlemen-- I appreciate your instincts to defend, but I think if you go back over my postings you'll see that I've kept my comments on an extremely simple and direct level, probably more so than anyone else, so it really isn't a matter of talking over anyone's head. As you've noted more than once, Dean, meagain makes it more difficult to help her than it already is. Not taking the trouble to read and understand reasonably simple advice--whether good or bad--offered with good intentions is what I was pointing out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Hardhead - LOL OK - As far as other's suggestions, I did every test as requested. As far as your suggestions to this thread..... Here they are: Lowering the loudness of the HF by adding L-pads or the ALK tweeter attenuator (preferably the ALK, if HF is important to you) would fix THAT problem, and you could go on to the others. Buy L-Pad or Al's attenuator. I am not sure when today I could have acquired these pieces - but I'm not going to anyway. I bought this DEQ to deal with it. I'm sorry I didn't take your advice and ordered them today. One thing that may help to raise the mid-range volume is a pair of K-55-M's which have also been documented on this forum as being about 1.5-2 dB's more efficient than the K-55-V's. Nor am I going to buy new squawkers to get 1.5-2 db's worth of gain. I'm sorry I did not take your advice and found some old squawkers today. All you have to do to balance your Klipschorns overall is to lower the volume of the K-77-M's to match the volume of the mid-range. Obviously. Then you need to change the squawker-tweeter setting on the crossovers to raise or lower the efficiency of the mid-range/HF to match to woofer output. I raised the squawker level. Done before you suggested it. That will take care of the overall balance of your speakers, but something tells me you're not going to do that. You're right - I'm going to do nothing. I just had nothing better to do today. So there you have it. Your comments to the thread which I allededly ignored. I'm not going to buy new squawkers. I'm not going to run out & buy L-Pads or spend $100 on Al's tweeter attenuator - UNLESS this DEQ can't fix it. Yes, I know I have to balance the graph out and I know the tweeters are hot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 And as far as not making adjustments, I stated earlier that I don't remember how to fully work this machine to do so. I wanted to get readings to determine if something was wrong with a driver, which if any speaker was worse, see if it was my room or the actual speakers themselves. I accomplished this today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Hardhead - how many aliases do you have anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 Attached is the published response plots for the khorn (top) and lascala (bottom) And for what it's worth - you can't use EQ for room induced issues. EQ affects frequencies for all time and does not account for the time-specific anomalies, which are generally the nature of most room issues. EQ'ing a system in the far-field to pink noise was something very common in the 80's but has since been debunked numerous times. I'll try to find some of the articles that way nobody has to take my word for it... What you really need is an ETF (yea...more money I know). Btw, the fact that the nasty dip in the response follows the crossover is an indication that something is wrong with that crossover. I would imagine some kind of phase cancellation between the bass bin and the squaker (isn't that right at the crossover frequency?) I would try reversing the polarity to just the squaker to see how things change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 " you can't use EQ for room induced issues." She isn't. She is EQing for a speaker issue as confirmed by comparing near field and far field response. The tweeter is hot both ways. As far as EQing room issues like resonance you can do it very effectively if you limit the correction to around 250hz and below. A resonance effects the entire room.The key there is having a measurement resolution of about 1hz and the same resolution in the EQ. (Very high Q filters) Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 Yes Shawn, there is no question the tweeters are hot. Whatever is causing that 250Hz drop-out in the one horn is another issue. The rise centered at 10K should be easy to equalize out with the Behringer. That is just applying a band aid though. For a time, I used K-77Ms in my Khorns to add some sparkle. That was when I was using my AA and bridged AA networks. When I first bought those ALKs from you I had problems adjusting to them, taking them in and out. I tried a bunch of different options with squakers and drivers like the rest of us tweakers. Until I started running the JBL tweets with attenuation, I found the original round magnet K-77s the best and smoothest with the ALK networks. I had nearly forgotten about this until last night. Lisa, If you are up to the task, take one or both of the round magnet tweeters out of your Corns put them at the top edge of the Ks and just listen. As far as Bob's tweeters, it seemsfrom the reviews here that those who like the older round tweeter sound don't like Bob's. Those that like the newer, splashier, square magnet sound do. I sending you a PM Lisa. (There seems to be a problem with the PM function. Let me know if you got it.) Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 3, 2006 Author Share Posted May 3, 2006 Good morning. Sorry I flew off the hangle last night. Hardhead ticked me off. MarkD - Yes, it can be piercing here. Hubby (who I believe has poor hearing) feels it also. I played with this gadget last night to relearn it and 'think' I figured a few things out. Will be printing Mike's emails off from January on this and will go back to page 1 of this thread and start taking down the tweeter section. Dr. Who - I only reversed the polarity? of the squawker on the right crossover taps. I'm not sure which speaker you were referring to to try. I'll have to reread your post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 3, 2006 Author Share Posted May 3, 2006 A bit of a puzzlement.... (I'm trying hard here to be able to post multipics but can't so far)... Left khorn. 90db test. Taps 5/2. New xovers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 3, 2006 Author Share Posted May 3, 2006 Duplicate test on Left khorn. OLD CROSSOVERS (1981 AA's) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 The published curves are worthless, and don't look anything like the true curves -- which I've seen. Lisa's nearfield measurments don't look radically different than the true curves. If there is something wrong with the network, we will never know because Lisa refuses to send them back to me or anyone else. If there is something wrong with the thing, it will be a first. The HF response is elevated in relationship to the squawker because the squawker has been padded down. If the output through the middle is elevated a few dB, it comes almost even with the lower and upper ends. However, the midrange becomes overbearing as the bass is left behind -- remember Fletcher-Munson. Lisa, I just read your post describing the sound of your Cornwalls. You need to issue a retraction or I will post the description of the sound you sent me through email. Speaking of email, let's look at part of this last one: "I'll forward the emails describing the problems in sound with the crossovers. But then for kicks we put in the BECs. Boom! They sounded fantastic (bass)! Got my bass back and the midrange was at an appropriate attenuation level. I'm like WTF? Hubby was "see! There's something wrong with Deans x-overs". At this point despite fighting this for so long. I had to agree. But then we put in yours for the umpteenth time - and Boom! It works! It sounded great except for my 'smaller' issues. Surely smoked BECs & my old ones." Now, I still think there is a problem with the woofer in the right Klipschorn, and when it cuts out the entire HF spectrum leaps forward. This problem is hard to pin on the network because there is only one part in the woofer circuit -- a single coil. Looking at the pictures you posted, the right side looks fairly weak in relationship to the left, and the problem didn't move with the networks when you switched them. Also, having the same problem with both networks would be next to impossible unless I just built them wrong. Now, if there is an issue, I can't deal with it unless I have the networks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 3, 2006 Author Share Posted May 3, 2006 The mega dip at 315 went away. (scratching head) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 It's a microphone/placement anomaly. I mean, it has to be. Both the Type AA and ALK networks use the same, single 2.5mH coil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 3, 2006 Author Share Posted May 3, 2006 If there is something wrong with the network, we will never know because Lisa refuses to send them back to me or anyone else. If there is something wrong with the thing, it will be a first. I've never refused to send them to you. I need(ed) to weed out a zillion things first. Lisa, I just read your post describing the sound of your Cornwalls. You need to issue a retraction or I will post the description of the sound you sent me through email. Speaking of email, let's look at part of this last one: Please send me the email I sent you on the sound. unedited - full monte. And I ask you to look at whether any complaints about them was to the bass or the horns. There is a world of difference between my opinion of their horn section vs. woofer. "I'll forward the emails describing the problems in sound with the crossovers. But then for kicks we put in the BECs. Boom! They sounded fantastic (bass)! Got my bass back and the midrange was at an appropriate attenuation level. I'm like WTF? Hubby was "see! There's something wrong with Deans x-overs". At this point despite fighting this for so long. I had to agree. But then we put in yours for the umpteenth time - and Boom! It works! It sounded great except for my 'smaller' issues. Surely smoked BECs & my old ones." Yes, it took many days for them to kick into gear for us. Now, I still think there is a problem with the woofer in the right Klipschorn, and when it cuts out the entire HF spectrum leaps forward. This problem is hard to pin on the network because there is only one part in the woofer circuit -- a single coil. Looking at the pictures you posted, the right side looks fairly weak in relationship to the left, and the problem didn't move with the networks when you switched them. Also, having the same problem with both networks would be next to impossible unless I just built them wrong. Now, if there is an issue, I can't deal with it unless I have the networks. Yes, since having the luxury of the Peach with it's left/right dials, and by sheer luck the 'break' occurred long enough to test gear, a/b, etc. I'm 95% convinced the issue was in the right speak. I did all your woofer tests with jiggling wires inside the bin, etc. but couldn't duplicate it. It arrives and leaves on it's own. It's the damndest thing. Because it only happens to us once every 3 weeks or so - it's tricky business. Only in the last few weeks have I truely been able to eliminate a zillion things that could cause it. Since I couldn't make it break, I switched the xovers as that was my only option. Personally, after hearing what comes out of the woofer when all other drivers are disconnected - I lean toward it being in the squawker. IDK. It's pretty dramatic when it happens. Since I switched the crossovers, it's now going on about a month since it happened. Craig pointed out that it's possible whatever is causing this big dramatic screwup - might be occurring to a much lesser extent 24/7. IDK. It's very odd. Mark D suggested buying a scope thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 3, 2006 Author Share Posted May 3, 2006 It's a microphone/placement anomaly. I mean, it has to be. Both the Type AA and ALK networks use the same, single 2.5mH coil. IDK - I didn't move the mic or change the pink volume, etc. Just switched the xovers. I'm going to try this again cuz unless I labeled my pics wrong - I could have sworn when I switched the new crossovers - that dip stayed in the left speaker despite the switch. So it makes little sense this old crossover would remove the dip. So maybe you're right. I'll repeat this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 "It's a microphone/placement anomaly." That is what I think too. If that dip/null was in the speaker itself it would be present in measurements anywhere in the room. AFAIK it isn't. It only appears in the measurements made 1m from the speaker at the specific height. The other measurements at other places in the room don't show that dip. I wouldn't worry about it. Simple test to explore this would be with the Behringer analyzing pink noise just pick up the mic and move it around from the position where she sees that dip and see what happens. Move the mic up/down, left/right/forward/backward. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 3, 2006 Author Share Posted May 3, 2006 Actually, one thing I didn't get to last night was reversing the squawk polarity on the left. Only did the right. Maybe I should try that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 3, 2006 Author Share Posted May 3, 2006 Simple test to explore this would be with the Behringer analyzing pink noise just pick up the mic and move it around from the position where she sees that dip and see what happens. Move the mic up/down, left/right/forward/backward. Shawn Good idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 Don't get too sidetracked on that dip. None of any measurements you have posted out in the room show it. If the mailman opened up the shipment of those crossovers and added a 315hz notch filter into the network that would effect the power response of the speaker and that notch would be seen everywhere in the room. Ditto a woofer that magically 'jumps' over that range and has output above and below that point. That would be a power response issue and would effect all locations in the room It doesn't appear to act that way from all the pics. you have posted. It looks to be some kind of localized null. Could be a reflection from a wall/floor, comb filtering from the horn itself or it could even just be driver interaction between the woofer and squawker. If the response of the null changes when you move the microphone around that pretty much confirms it is a null. It shouldn't take a lot of movement to see big changes.. a foot or two should be more then enough to see large differences in what is happening there. This is likely an example of one of the reasons simple near field measurements aren't enough to see what is happening where it matters. Shawn P.S..... Deal with the tweeter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 "It's pretty dramatic when it happens. Since I switched the crossovers, it's now going on about a month since it happened." It was always in the right Klipschorn, is that right? So if it happens again, it should now happen in the left Klipschorn -- if it's network related. Even if there isn't something odd going on with one of the networks, the highs are too much for you, so you should send them back so I can do something about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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