What Behringer DEQ2496 Says About My Room - (pic)

[PrestonTom]

Well it looks like some serious progress has been made. Congratulations!

Please heed the advice about taking time & just listening (no more tweaking). In fact it is premature to even do any more measuring (using tones etc). Just listen for awhile

Problem #1: If you do more measuring, especially using tones or even 1/6 octave bands, you will enter the darker side of the world of acoustics. You will see also sorts of peaks and dips. These will change drastically as you measure from different spots in the room. This is the brutal reality of room acoustics: there are lots of standing waves. When you measure with a pure tone, they become very glaring. In fact, you don't even need a microphone. Simply play low freq tones (and even mid frequency) through a speaker and very slowly move around the room. The levels will oscillate quite a bit. One step further, now open a door, or close the drapes, or move a chair. The levels will again change and oscillate, but in a different manner than before.

This is why I am adamant that one should consider the total response to be dominated by the speaker/room considered as a "system". It is the most dominant component of the sound. Much more so than what amp, tube, wire, capacitor, CD player, etc you might be using. This is a tough lesson for some. But the lesson is clear: put you money and energy on the "components" that make the biggest impact.

Problem #2: You now have a device (the EQ) and the tools (room treatments etc) to radically change the sound. In fact you can spend all day fiddling with the Behringer, and changing the sound this way or that way. The differences will be clear; however, the words you use to describe the changes will be "fuzzy" and difficult to capture the sensation. The crux of the problem is that it is very easy to change some aspect of the sound (by changing some component (s) of the spectrum), but it is VERY difficult to judge whether this change is for the better or for the worse. This is paradoxical, since one would think that this would be simple and fast judgement. This is an important point. It is also a very difficult problem.

For instance, one can make a logical argument that the spectrum should be flat (relative to the spectrum of the music originally - in this case you would use white noise and it would measure flat on the Behringer, while pink noise would slope down at 3dB per octave). That is, no coloration. Not so easy, If it is made "flat" (when masured at the listener's position), it typically sounds "too bright". This perception is frequently mentioned, although no one really understands why this should be the case. Some feel that the response should be flat for the mids and highs when measured several feet in front of the listener. Perhaps this can be your guide to at least get you started. Also keep in mind that an EQ will not solve all sins (speaker/room acoustic issues) so use it sparingly. For instance if one is trying to boost low bass by 20 dB or to get rid of excessive reverberation, then an EQ is not the right solution

Good luck,

-Tom

[meagain]

Colt - Yes, I'm going to fix my fix. I forgot that I could create a peak/dip and physically scooch it over. duh.

I was thinking about 'flat' and don't think I want to strive for that. I think I shouldn't force things to be what they don't want to be naturally too too much. I've not even looked at the rest of the chart yet and don't know what to do there.

[colterphoto1]

Colt - Yes, I'm going to fix my fix. I forgot that I could create a peak/dip and physically scooch it over. duh.

I was thinking about 'flat' and don't think I want to strive for that. I think I shouldn't force things to be what they don't want to be naturally too too much. I've not even looked at the rest of the chart yet and don't know what to do there.

more than just centering it (the scooch manouver), you can vary the width (the squash or strech manouver)- this last one is the one I was pointing out to you in my last post.

Please study the manual on the parametric. These are basic functions.

M

[colterphoto1]

this has probably been mentioned before, but is your goal pure flat response from the speakers irrespective of the room, or including the room, or to get the speakers to sound good to your ears at your seating location.

This open up a huge philosophical discussion of music reproduction vs the speakers becoming part of the pile of equipment that can alter the sound to your liking.

Have you definied your goals prior to the experiment? What is the hypothesis? Remember the old Scientific Method from science class? That's where you are right now.

Take two giant steps back.

M

[meagain]

Goal: to get the speakers to sound good to your ears at your seating location. I don't want to alter the inherent vibe of the khorns else I'd just buy different speakers. I like that these sound 'more real' and don't want to change their basic nature. I want to bring out the best in them. I've always thought they had far more potential then what they've been giving me.

The main impetus is to quell the harsh/bright/peircing stuff. In a triage situation - that's the first that needs fixing. Pretty it up. Then make better any other anomalies that might be wrong on paper - then listen to see if I like it when it's made more 'right'. I know what fixing the tweeter will sound good to me, but not sure about the rest of it. If there are improvements that can be made to the sound in the non-tweeter areas, I'm willing to try them out but not sure if I'll like them. But that's ok cuz I can reverse it again. If I could get a better sound to my ears also from the mids/bass - that would be exciting too! People seem to say my bass is 'off', but not sure what that means. If they want me to chill it down - I might not go there as nothing says "ah" to me like killer bass. I'm very happy with the bass but if I'm missing out on an improvement - I'll be all over that like a bag of chips!

(bass freek)

[meagain]

I cleared my old settings out and created one clean -6db dip at 7500-7600 which didn't seem to negatively effect the 4k and seemed to only take down that first tweeter hump. Not sure why I couldn't pull that off yesterday. The graph looks similar to the flat tweeter area above though.

[colterphoto1]

Good, you get an 'A' in the Philosophy dept. You are on your way. Just take frequent breaks, change one thing. take day off, listen to music, then again. Kind of like shampoo. Lather, rinse, repeat....

[Strabo]

Congratulations meagain!

Now take that last bit of Shawn's advice and stop tweaking. I don't think a day is enough. Let the changes sink in, even if you don't think you like it now. Give it a least a couple of days. I'd say give it a week or two. Enjoy your system and listen to music for a while.

Get a good feel for the way it sounds now. Listen to your favorite music, your most familiar music, then listen to regular and new stuff. Spend some time with your system. Take some time off. Don't even turn the system on for a couple of days. Then play something you are familiar with and decide what you would like to be different and work from there. The key is to give yourself time to adjust and understand what you like and don't like before any more changes can be made.

The last time I changed my system I thought I went too far. It took me six months to fully accept that I didn't go to far. A year later and now I don't think I went far enough. Yeah, I'm a slow learner. [:$] The point is, give it some time.

[meagain]

Thanks Strabo. I'm going to try to resist but I might have to take some action on one part. The bass seems boomier to me. I don't think that's technically possible but it feels that way a bit. But it's certainly 'too too' at 100hz which is exactly where I have a freeky spike. I feel pressure in my head and might be on my way to a headache from it. I'm listening to acoustic bass now and I think it's too much.

One side bonus to toneing down the tweeters is a removal/diminish of hissss in the background on the recording when the music stops or quiets. That's nice. I still have brightness but I think it's better.

Oh - and I AM in phase. Not sure what I was thinking yesterday!

[Cal Blacksmith]

Congrats on your positive changes. Take some time and listen to it!

For gosh sakes please take some time off, I had a hard time reading this whole thread, and it never stopped![][][]

[Strabo]

The bass seems boomier to me. I don't think that's technically possible but it feels that way a bit.

Possibly. Most likely it always was there but your attention was being drawn to the tweeters so you didn't notice it. I don't know how loud you listen but it may be fixed by simply reducing the volume so the room isn't loaded with as much bass.

[meagain]

3dzapper - you might be right about the tweeter swap idea. It makes perfect sense to me.

I have the K-55-V and K-77-M. From reading, I see the K-55-V is less hot than the K-55-M. K-77 is less hot than the K-77-M. It makes sense to me that the squawk & tweeter should be matched better. i.e.; the K-55-M and K-77-M probably sound better together. The K-55-V matches better with the K-77.

Seems to me, I should put the K-77 into my khorns and remove the K-77-M.

Is there a flaw in this thinking?

Dean - I have a question.. You mentioned listening to my networks prior to sending them out (with their solen caps that seems only I have which doesn't help my anxiety level).... How are you able to design and judge networks when you have non-klipsch squawkers & tweeters? I.e; IMO, you don't really have khorns, so isn't everything skewed a bit? I mean, how can you judge xovers via listening to them with speakers that are unique to only a few?

[SilverSport]

meagain...I think Dean started with "normal" K'Horns (AK-4s?) and then changed (can you say constant state of flux) them in his quest for better sound...ending (at least for now) where he is now...Bill

[sunnysal]

meagain,

I am going to toss my two cents in...

I thought dean was simply stating that the networks sounded the same as all the others he has made, that they were not "out of spec". He started with stock khorns beofre going over to "the dark side" of tweaking.

EQ is a limited tool. I would council against making and driver changes just yet. first get up the learning curve with the digital EQ and get the best results possible with what you have, where you have it. You room is BY FAR the most important factor in the curves you are running, since you cannot move speakers you will need room treatment accesories to get the best out of your system, no way around that. EQ will be most useful for cutting peaks, not bumping up duips (forigve me if people have already told you that).

Resist, please resist, the desire to get everything perfect right now. you have to take your time when making changes and listening, otherwise you will make erroneous decisions. let your ears absorb fully the sound, rest between changes, etc. it takes time, accept that and you will have better results.

Too many cooks spoil the pot...everyone here is giving good advice and trying to help BUT they are not in your room listening to your system and thus they are EXTREMELY handycapped in how they can help you. Learn the tool (the EQ), then EQ to taste and curve, I feel you have not mastered the EQ yet and that may be upping the frustration factor and limiting your results.

The k-horn is a potentially great sounding speaker, in the right room, with the right anciallary equipment it can sound great...to some people (nuts like me). Though I will certainly upgrade my drivers and horns some day and thus plunge myself into the whole crossover issue (I plan to use a clarity DEQX [no relation to behringer] to handle crossover, EQ and room and driver correction duties [in the time/phase domain]) I am already sure it will be an arduous, confusing process. I plan to study, study, study the issues. ask a few question around here and elsewhere to gain from the general knowledge base and finally, embrace the process, enjoy the caos.

"If one decides to to tweak ones system one must enjoy the process as much as the result or else all is lost" - yoda stars war III

sorry for the ramble but I feel for you and your frustrations.

tony

[Deang]

Solen film and tin foils in my personal ALKs. These were eventually sold to Carl Geraci, who loves them.

[Deang]

Solen film and tin foils in the Cornwall ALKs I built for JC Cullison. No complaints.

[meagain]

Dean - what are the yellow caps in that top pic? And why do some crossovers have just 2 caps and some have a gaggle? What makes the difference in deciding how many caps one gets and do you consider the type of horn model when choosing a network design?

Either way, I know you like those v-caps and am curious as to what they do for the high end? I'm still struggling with fixing my highs with this DEQ. If I take down the tweeter section (which IS my problem I believe)... it seems to lose some detail. A frustrating trade off that I think I'm going to have to accept.

Still playing with the DEQ. Will try again today a bit. I think I climbed the learning curve yet still having problems if I try to tweek beyond the tweeter section. Including 'air & space' issues. When I shut off my settings to compare, I prefer it as is without the tweeks. Maybe I like the sound better than I thought. Or I'm just plain used to it. Darned tweeters!

[meagain]

Solen film and tin foils in my personal ALKs. These were eventually sold to Carl Geraci, who loves them.

Who has trachorns like you and just made an offer to buy Rocketmans' Tweeter Attenuators about a week ago. []

I'm starting to get curious about my Cornwalls tweeter which sound good. Can't remember which version it has though. Maybe I just like what those Jensens might be doing for it? Bass is not good though.

[Deang]

Typed out before your response, but I'm going to post it anyway. I'll respond to your last post in a bit.

If those caps are good enough for me they're good enough for everyone else. They are similiar in construction and material as the AudioCap PPT Theta but for a bit less money. When I put orders in to Solen for the Litz inductors, I buy as many as I can afford. It I didn't think they were great performers I wouldn't use them. Many on this board have networks I originally built for myself. A few were hybrids, for example: Mark Deneen and Charles Borchers both use Type AA networks, but with the tweeter filter from the Super AA. IOW, using the same tweeter circuit you have -- with no complaints whatsoever. Obviously I built that filter twice. Built it, enjoyed it, and when I started playing with the Super AA design I sold it to Mark. I built it again a year later when I decided I wanted to hear the circuit with a bandpass in the squawker section.

Like I told someone else recently, I may not walk on water, but I know how to wrench great sound out of Heritage. All of my building and listening tests were done using K-77-M's, K-55-V's (soldered), K-55-M's, and PD5's with the K-401 horn. I've built all of the Klipschorn networks except the AK, and have built them with a lot of different parts. After this fiasco started, I built up a set and took them over to JohnnydB's house here in Kettering and loaded them up in his Belles. We spent the afternoon listening, along with his fiance -- who thought it sounded great. Again, the same network was used in Craig's LaScalas at the AKfest in Michigan a few weekends ago -- stellar sound, and it didn't matter what horn/driver combination was used. I demo-ed that same network in Indy last year at the mixer the night before the tour -- with great results and plenty of positive comments. Trey did a SPL test and hit the maximum output of his LaScalas (120dB) -- while people sitting in the front row 15 feet back were kicked back eating potato chips.

Is the tweeter "hot"? Well, the actual output is just over 1dB higher than the Type A. I cold argue that the tweeter is only "hot" when the squawker output is lowered. You see, it's all relative. You could easily raise the squawker output to bring it in line with the tweeter, but then like many -- you might find the midrange unbearable, and although the actual output level of the bassbin is right in there -- you would "lose" bass (perceptually speaking). The pic below is one you posted in the other thread. Look at the output from 250Hz on down, and compare it to the tweeter. Now, with your mind, fill in the middle. Just about everyone finds that type of sound to be simply too much -- so they opt to take the midrange down a bit and live with the now "elevated" tweeter output.

[cjgeraci]

"Solen film and tin foils in my personal ALKs. These were eventually sold to Carl Geraci, who loves them."

"Who has trachorns like you and just made an offer to buy Rocketmans' Tweeter Attenuators about a week ago. []"

To set the record straight, yes, I bought Rocketmans' Tweeter Attentuators about a week ago, but no, they were not for my Heritage speakers. I plan on using the attenuators with my Altecs Valencias (my rear speakers) with Beyma tweeters, now that I have converted those to 3-way speakers. Why? Because the Beymas allegedly run hotter than either model of the K-77s or the Eminence. I've played around with same Behringer that you have and I would rather deal with a "hot" tweeter with my Altecs by lowering the tweeter volume level versus dealing with the same issues via the Behringer. At least that is my preference.

Also, just as many on the forum, I ran stock Klipsch parts (drivers and horns) for quite a while with various aftermarket networks and so, I have some point of reference to vouch for various networks, etc. Yes, I currently run Trachorns with my Belles. That being said, prior to the Trachorn conversion, I also obtained some really nice sound out of my Belles back when I was running K-500 horns and K-77 Alnico tweeters (and K-77Ms) with those ALKs that Dean described above. And yes, Dean is right - I love those networks. Having heard stock K-500s and K-77s with various networks, I can tell you that yes - I have been very happy with the ALKs with premium parts - and at least to my ears - the quality of parts does make a difference. Additionally, with the ALK network, neither the K-77 Alnicos or K-77Ms offended my ears like what you are describing, and I never had the desire to pad or bring down the tweeter section when running stock Klipsch drivers/horns. I eventually went to the Eminence tweeters (Bob's driver) because to my ears, those drivers sound cleaner than either K-77.

Having clarified that, I will now step aside...... and may this adventure continue.

Carl.