sfogg Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Meagain, "Are you moving the mics position when you switch left to right? Zero change. " So you are measuring the left speaker with the mic in front of the right or vice versa? Or are you moving the mic to in front of the left speaker when you measure it then moving it to in front of the right speaker when you measure that one. (EDIT: Nevermind... I see you added that info) "The height is locked in due to the mic stand, etc." I had another though on that.... is the height around 43"? If so that maybe the cause of your 315hz suckout.... floor bounce. If you want to check that change the mics height and see if that suckout changes. ".. Make a measurement from the middle of the room equal distance to both speakers with each speaker playing pink noise alone, then another with each speaker playing pink noise together. In the sweet spot?" From the middle of the room equal distance to both speakers. If that happens to be the sweet spot fine, if not.... "There is nothing out of phase on my end. " Don't argue... just do it. For all you know the diaphragm in your K55 could have been replaced and whoever did it wired it internally backwards which would throw it out of phase if you hooked up all the wiring properly. We are trying to eliminate possible problems. If it isn't the room causing that bad response below 500hz on the right side, and it isn't an acoustic phasing problem between squawker/woofer you likely have a bad woofer. Wouldn't you rather spend a couple of minutes inverting polarity to a driver instead of just charging $130 on a new woofer... that might not solve anything if that wasn't the problem in the first place? " Can I ask why I should care about imaging right now? " Sure... because we are trying to use that to determine acoustic phase. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 1) are my speakers messed up? No, I don't think so. 2) are my crossovers confused? In some of the pics I thought something might be whacked, but then in other pictures things looked very close to how they looked in my room. It doesn't really suprise me that there wasn't any difference (visually) between taps 4 and 0 and 5 and 2, I mean, it's less than 1dB of difference. Like Tom said, the room will have a greater impact than moving between tap settings -- I'm also sure you noticed how small changes in microphone placement impacted the results on the display. Because of your mixed posts, I sometimes worry about those networks, but weigh that against the fact that I used them and didn't have any issues. I do sometimes wish you would send them to someone who is currently using the same network -- who can load them up and give me a second opinion. Now, I am finding that with every two dozen pair I sell, I'm ending up with a person, who after making the move from an old stock filter finds the ALKJr tweeter too hot for their tastes. I do worry that there are more, and just aren't saying anything. I have a feeling that anyone with most of their high frequency hearing intact probably feels it's too much, while those with diminshed hearing in the treble probably like it. Truthfully, I don't possibly see how it can be any worse than going from an old set of AA's to a rebuilt set of Type A's!! 3) which tap setting should I go with? 5/2 always sounds best to me personally, unless I'm using the ALK, then I go with 4/0. Just some final thoughts here: You're on the short wall, and with the Klipschorns basically firing into each other -- there are some things going on that the Behringer can't show you. The Klipsch Heritage sound revolves around a honky midrange and raspy tweeter. Some people love the sound and never want to move away from it. Others don't like it much at all, but somehow believe they should, and so stick with it. When finances allow, they spend lot's of money on gear trying to "fix" it. Some take off the rose colored glasses and change their horns and tweeters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 When I test the left, the mic is 36" away from it. When I test the right, I carry the mic to the right speak & put it 36" from that one. ] Mic is at 48"-48.5". Where the tweet/squawk meet. Floor has plush thick carpet w/pad under. What does the woofer have to do with the tweeter/high section? I cannot fathom anything wrong with the woofers here. Unless of course my intermittant drop out issue is happening and I can't tell due to the pink noise? I took pics and yes the middle of the room is the sweetspot. Anyone know how I can post more than one pic at a time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Lisa, read Shawn's posts carefully, and do exactly what he tells you. Don't miss this opportunity to learn some awesome stuff, and get this mess straightend out as well! Hey, I've already bookmarked this thread myself. I guess I know what I'm doing this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 1) are my speakers messed up? No, I don't think so. 2) are my crossovers confused? In some of the pics I thought something might be whacked, but then in other pictures things looked very close to how they looked in my room. It doesn't really suprise me that there wasn't any difference (visually) between taps 4 and 0 and 5 and 2, I mean, it's less than 1dB of difference. Like Tom said, the room will have a greater impact than moving between tap settings -- I'm also sure you noticed how small changes in microphone placement impacted the results on the display. Because of your mixed posts, I sometimes worry about those networks, Dean - I confess to 'always' worrying about them. Especially because of our inability to get them to function when first received and since then we have that same exact sound upon first install when we have our intermittant drop out issue. I always wondered if they were dropped in shipping and there was some obscure crack in a solder or something amiss that is hard to track down. The boxes were pristine though but who knows. but weigh that against the fact that I used them and didn't have any issues. I do sometimes wish you would send them to someone who is currently using the same network -- who can load them up and give me a second opinion. The problem Dean, if my intermittant issue is in the xovers - they won't hear it for perhaps 3-5 weeks. That's the reason I'm hesitant to send them to anyone and instead opted to wait for it to happen again. I made great strides with the last crash and might be able to nail it down the next time. Conversely, sfogg's tests might tell me alot? Though I sure wish this 'thing' would present itself soon. It's not happened since I switched the crossovers. Now, I am finding that with every two dozen pair I sell, I'm ending up with a person, who after making the move from an old stock filter finds the ALKJr tweeter too hot for their tastes. I do worry that there are more, and just aren't saying anything. I have a feeling that anyone with most of their high frequency hearing intact probably feels it's too much, IDK - I'd be willing to guess my hubby doesn't have great hearing given he's 46 and been playing in bands all his life onstage? while those with diminshed hearing in the treble probably like it. Truthfully, I don't possibly see how it can be any worse than going from an old set of AA's to a rebuilt set of Type A's!! Type A's are harsher - right? I always thought maybe I'd like A better but thought the AA was safer for me? What I'm interested in is your post above about 1st & 3rd order tweeter spots. Maybe after I run all these tests.... maybe you could hook me up with a tweek that will give me a better tweeter situation? 3) which tap setting should I go with? 5/2 always sounds best to me personally, unless I'm using the ALK, then I go with 4/0. I'm on 5/2 for the sfoggs tests. I always liked it better also. Gives me more 'stuff'. Just some final thoughts here: You're on the short wall, and with the Klipschorns basically firing into each other -- there are some things going on that the Behringer can't show you. That is why we toed out the khorns, toed out only the horns (according to Craig's recommendations to angle) and lived with that for about 2 weeks. There was zero change in the quality or harshness issues. So I eliminated the 'fireing into each other' aspect there. The Klipsch Heritage sound revolves around a honky midrange and raspy tweeter. Some people love the sound and never want to move away from it. Others don't like it much at all, but somehow believe they should, and so stick with it. When finances allow, they spend lot's of money on gear trying to "fix" it. Some take off the rose colored glasses and change their horns and tweeters. My gut says there's more to this than both of us just not digging horns. I'll consider this when I eliminate everything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Lisa, Shawn is concerned about the bass response on one of the Klipschorns. We were all so focused on the elevated tweeter output that we missed the obvious problem on the low end. Look at what he said: The right K'Horn looks worse from about 500hz and down too so something isn't right there either. It might just be the room... but.... Isn't this the K-horn you've been complaining about all this time?? Phasing is a complicated issue, so instead of thinking about everything he's saying, it's best just to do what he says and report the results -- the explanations can come later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Mic in center of room (sweetspot). Mic centered evenly between speaks. Left khorn. Tap 5/2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Right khorn in center of room (sweetspot). Tap 5/2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Both khorns. Sweetspot. Fireing into each other. Tap 5/2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 "Mic is at 48"-48.5". Where the tweet/squawk meet. Floor has plush thick carpet w/pad under." That might be causing the suckout. 315hz has a wavelength of 43"s a bounce from the floor would end up being out of phase with the direct sound at the mic. A 1/3 octave EQ is sort of averaging so a sharp suckout within a 1/3 of an octave of 315hz would still show up in that band. Anyhow... since you aren't seeing that at the listening position I wouldn't worry about it. I was just theorizing on what that cause could be. "What does the woofer have to do with the tweeter/high section?" You mean to the hot tweeters? It doesn't. To fix the hot tweeters you need to dial them down. L-Pad/autoformers or EQ. Done deal. Try any of the above methods and see what you think of the sound. I know how I would react to the change, I don't know how you would. The right speakers response below 500hz looked like another problem as I said in an earlier post. Or at least it didn't look quite as good as the left speakers response. I was just posting ways to try and get more info on that. It may just be the room, it may not be. The additional listening tests/measurements were to try to explore that more. If you are a little overwhelmed at this point don't worry about below 500hz yet. Deal with the hot tweeters and see what you think after that. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 I hope I did the 'both' right. Looks weird. The left speaker looks more extreme than the right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Follow through with Shawn's instructions - to the letter. We can come back to the networks later. It's highly unlikely there is anything wrong with them -- I was only half asleep when I soldered them together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Dean, "The Klipsch Heritage sound revolves around a honky midrange and raspy tweeter. Some people love the sound and never want to move away from it. Others don't like it much at all, but somehow believe they should, and so stick with it. When finances allow, they spend lot's of money on gear trying to "fix" it. Some take off the rose colored glasses and change their horns and tweeters." That is deep! I think you summarized about 5 years worth of forum activity in that one. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Is that both picture with the K'Horns in phase or out of phase? Whichever it is do another measurement for the opposite condition. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 It would be cool to walk into Lisa's listening room and say, "Oh no, that's exactly what it's supposed to sound like." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Lisa, Do me a favor? Reverse the polarity in the mids and redo those? Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 sfogg - the last set of pics were following these directions "Make a measurement from the middle of the room equal distance to both speakers with each speaker playing pink noise alone, then another with each speaker playing pink noise together. Basically I want to see what the composite of both speakers looks like together from a position equal distance from both and also measurements of each speaker on its own to try and see what the room is doing. Don't worry about changing tap settings or anything like that right now. " next - the woofer test Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Right woofer. tap 5&2. mic in center Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 left woofer. 5/2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 both woofers running tap 5/2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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