Jump to content

Looking for sub-woofer Solution


Bill Cain

Recommended Posts

OK, first post as a member.....

I have a mobile system that is composed of Klipsch and EAW speakers. I have four (eight cabinets) Klipsh Split La Scala Industrials in Black Fiberglas, two Klipsh Industrial Heresy's, two EAW FR-253's and two EAW SB180's.

I mix and match speakers to fill various needs. Everything has been used at once, Heresy's used as DJ monitors, EAW's used as short-throw and center fill, La Scalas as long-throw.

Amps are Crown DC-300's, MA-600, MA-1200, MA-2400, and MA-3600vz's.

Mixers are Bozak 10-2DL, Rane MP/XP2016, Rane MP-44.

Playback units are three SL-1200 turntables's and four SLP-1200 CD player's.

DSP is DriveRack.

I would like to expand the bottom end. I have used the entire system in conjunction with a Levan bass bin, out of the Paradise Garage. Sounded great, but was not my equipment and was not really portable. I'm now looking to source a pair of subs that might replace / augment the SB180's. Hopefully something smaller than the Levan....

I'd like two subs for flexibility, in case I need to run one with the EAW system and one with the Klipsch system.

I am not limiting myself to either Klipsch or EAW. I am looking at Bassmaxx, for example.

Any ideas out there?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It isn't klipsch and is a bit akward but here's a sub you should definetly consider:

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/DANLEY_dts20.htm

It's a tapped horn design and thus should blend in real well with your

lasclas (gotta love the dynamics of being completely hornloaded).

Btw, what is your budget?

You might also look into some of the EAW subs...not sure if you're

looking for hornloaded, but I'm a fan of most all of their bass systems.

(http://www.eaw.com/products/BH760.html)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know the numbers (480's?) but Klipsch still makes some dual 18" bins that are used for commercial Theatre applications that might do the trick.

You might contact Steve PHillips at Klipsch .

Looking throught the website, it appears there are two possible Klipsch Solutions.

1) The KPT-684's (dual 18" direct radiator) are a possible solutiom. With a 105dB @ 1 watt/1 meter rating, they would match nicely with the La Scala's. With a 48.5" X 31" footprint, a pair would be a perfect base for four La Scala's.

Likewise, they might work very well with the EAW 253's, as direct radiators. I do love my La Scala's, but the EAW 253's are a nice one-box solution, with wheels no less.

2) The newer KPT-MWM, dual 15", horn-loaded woofer is another solution. As it's a horn-loaded design, I would expect it to be a bit more efficient than the 684's. A set of castors on the back and we might have a winner.

The 684 appears to be a bit of a compromise, designed to fit in a confined space behind a threater screen. The MWM is larger and heavier, but less of a design compromise. I'll just have to crank some delay into the rest of the system to make up for that 10-foot horn length.

Are there any Klipsch dealers who actually have either in stock and might audition them? Or are we on our own when it comes to making a choice?

Back in the Seventies and Eighties, Chujko Brothers of Pittsburgh had everything from Heresy's to an MCM ready for audition. Sadly, they are no longer a Klipsch dealer....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It isn't klipsch and is a bit akward but here's a sub you should definetly consider:

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/DANLEY_dts20.htm

It's a tapped horn design and thus should blend in real well with your lasclas (gotta love the dynamics of being completely hornloaded).

I went to their website and found an interesting White Paper download.

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/danley_tapped.pdf

While only using a single 12-inch driver, the Danley sub does offer a different drumbeat. I will have to learn more about this product / technology and how it best loads into a room environment. While the term "Tapped Horn" is pretty damn 'new' to me, it seems to me the design fundamentals been around for a long time.

I guess I need to learn more..... such as how the Danley compares to traditional subs in head-to-head competition. Guess I'll have to ask them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You might also look into some of the EAW subs...not sure if you're looking for hornloaded, but I'm a fan of most all of their bass systems.

(http://www.eaw.com/products/BH760.html)

Yet another great option. It's an EAW product so it links nicely with the FR-253's and SB180's. Being a horn, it meshes nicely with the La Scala's. Using two 12-inch drivers, it (potentially) moves more air than the Danley. But the Danley's claim-to-fame is longer excursion. So, maybe not......

As far as weight is concerned, a bass bin weight of 250 lb is not a killer. After all, you don't HAVE to stack them. LOL

So far we have four pretty damn good options:

1) Dual 18-inch Direct Radiator ~ Klipsch KPT-684

2) Dual 15-inch Folded Horn ~ Klipsch KPT-MWM

3) Dual 12-inch Folded Horn ~ EAW BH760

4) Single 12-inch Tapped Horn ~ Danley DTS-20

There seems to be a technological and chronological progression to these. The trend seems to be towards smaller / fewer drivers w/ more efficiency as a by-product.

Now, if we could just alter the laws of Physics so we could build a sub with a 6-inch driver... in a 50 lb box... that pumped out 140db... with a 100w amp... LOL

Isn't Bose working on that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Uh, Who- I think he's looking for portable

PA subwoofers. Read again. The Danley monster is for HT use. But the

EAW would rock. On second thought it's 253 POUNDS, YOU go lift it up on

the truck!

If you talk with Tom Danley he claims the sub was designed for PA use. He hangs out over at http://www.prosoundweb.com/

- which would be a great place for more information. The longer narrow

design fits easily along the sides of a pickup truck and they work real

well in front of a stage laying on their sides. Also, the measurements

were all taken in half space (the ground outside) with 10W at 10m (so

'same' number as 1w at 1m).

That EAW bass horn is the only hornloaded bass bin I ever liked...not at all tubby sounding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you talk with Tom Danley he claims the sub was designed for PA use. He hangs out over at http://www.prosoundweb.com/ - which would be a great place for more information.

I called Danley and spoke at length with 'Mike.'

He was very supportive of the DTS-20 as a sub.... until I addressed the use of my equipment. When I mentioned DJ work he immediately shifted gears and recommended their TH-115.

Chief reasons were portability and efficiency. The TH-115 weighs 120 lb, has wheels, and has a 103db sensitivity. The DTS-20 weighs 206 lb, has no wheels, and has a 95db sensitvity.

Max output from the DTS-20 is 122db and 125 peak; the TH-115 is 136db max and 141 db peak. The TH-115 seems to whip the DTS-20.

The EAW BH760 weighs 253 lb, has an available castor pallet, and has a 107db sensitivity, with a 139 db max and 145 db peak. Large numbers from a large box.

The TH-115 would appear to be 'roughly' one/half of the EAW BH760 in weight and output. It also is designed much as my EAW FR-253's are, with castors at the back for tilt and roll simplicity. It's 1/2 inch shorter, 2 inces narrower and about 10 inches deeper.

It would appear that, sans any new suggestions, the Danley TH-115 might be a nice choice, as it approximates the high-output EAW when multipled, yet is easily handled in the smaller packages.

I remain open to all suggestions and thank those who have weighed in, so far. I look forward to learning more through this forum. I started out with a guitar amplifier with a microphone and the High School's record player, in 1961. Still learning........

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you looked at Turbosound yet?

No. I have heard Turbo systems and they do get loud. LOL<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

But as my system has grown, over the years, it has been an accumulation process. It started with the Heresy's. Then the La Scala's were added. Next, a pair of EAW SB180s added to the bottom. As gigs got bigger, I added the EAW FR-253s and another pair of SB-180s. I guess I have the coverage that I need. Im now looking to enhance the edges of that coverage.

I have stockpiled a bunch of JBL tweeters in anticipation of extending the top end, through overhead arrays and a Richard Long type of crossover that can pump those arrays. This thread is an attempt to expand the bottom end, in a modular fashion, so that it can also be pumped. I dont wish to alter the basic core of the system. I just want to add to the extremes.

If there is a Turbo product that would do that, in a modular fashion, let me know. I like the idea of 2 or 4 subs that can be used with the Klipsch stuff OR the EAW stuff OR both. In this case, smaller is better as they can then be summed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another brand you might look into is B-52:

http://www.b-52pro.com/

I have had very good experiences with some of their older subs, but

they seem to have gone a bit cheesy since then. Nevertheless, just

providing more options.

What bandwidth were you hoping to achieve with this subwoofer system?

Your overview analysis is a perfect example of Hoffman's Iron Law (for

the same cabinet volume the lower it goes, the less efficient it is):

Max output from the DTS-20 is 122db and 125 peak; the TH-115 is

136db max and 141 db peak. The TH-115 seems to whip the DTS-20.

One thing you didn't compare was the different frequency responses. The

DTS-20 has extension down below 20Hz whereas the TH-115 is 'only'

digging down to around 40Hz. (I'm just throwing numbers out from memory

so I might be off by a bit). You'll have to choose how low you need

your system to go and go from there...no need to purchase something

that goes way lower than you need (because that extra performance will

go wasted when it could be converted into other aspects of the design).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another brand you might look into is B-52:

http://www.b-52pro.com/ I have had very good experiences with some of their older subs, but they seem to have gone a bit cheesy since then. Nevertheless, just providing more options.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I have seen their product and concur with your evaluation.

What bandwidth were you hoping to achieve with this subwoofer system?

My core system might be best viewed as a huge La Scala; its very efficient and presents the music with clarity. However, it lacks the extreme bottom end that is associated with traditional disco systems. It also lacks the extreme top end that one finds via the traditional hanging JBL bullet arrays. Both these extremes were first exploited by Richard Long, back in the Seventies, and are capabilities I desire to add to my mobile system. That does not mean that they are utilized at all times. It means that they are merely another tool to be used by the DJ to enhance the performance.

Rather than change the core clarity and efficiency of my system, I hope to grow my systems potential bass response, in the 20 80 hz range, in order have the flexibility to playback and creatively enhance any source material.

You'll have to choose how low you need your system to go and go from there...no need to purchase something that goes way lower than you need (because that extra performance will go wasted when it could be converted into other aspects of the design).

Agreed. The DTS-20 may actually be able to reproduce much lower than any of the other systems. But if the source material only goes to 20 22 kz, with lots of energy in the 25 60 hz range, reproducing 12 20 hz is a waste of resources.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Doc, lets keep in mind the transportability and stackability of this proposed system. That's another reason I tossed the MWM's from the list.

Just do google search on Turbosound, they have some very efficient, small folded horn cabinets.

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The KPT series is theater only, sold to movie theaters like Regal.

The only pro sub we have avalible at this time is the KP-1000-CX, but limited supply only. This is the network version, 150 Hz point

40-400Hz, 300 watts, 1200 peak. max continuous db 127, 101 dB @ 2.83 volts, 8 ohm nom., 5.1 min @ 183 Hz single 15" K-48-KP woofer

18.9 high, 24.5 wide, 19.5 deep 65lbs

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only pro sub we have avalible at this time is the KP-1000-CX, but limited supply only. This is the network version, 150 Hz point

40-400Hz, 300 watts, 1200 peak. max continuous db 127, 101 dB @ 2.83 volts, 8 ohm nom., 5.1 min @ 183 Hz single 15" K-48-KP woofer

Thanks for the heads-up, Steve. Looks like the "Pro" Klipsch line has thinned out to the point of darn near disappearing. I long for those days when I could walk into a Klipsch dealer and audition the Industrial line, up to and including the MCM. I purchased the Heresy and La Scala models and use them to this day. I have augmented them, but never replaced them. It's impossible to replace either with today's products.

I look at the MDF crap on the market today and note that my Fibeglas-covered and metal-edged split La Scala's whip the snot out of anything currently on the market. And NOBODY has ever put out a 3-way box to beat the Heresy Industrial. I always figured that the Industrial line was a classic and would be in production forever. I see I was wrong.

I guess that I'll continue to lurk in ePay for more good vintage Klipsch Industrial gear and look to other sources for subs to compliment my La Scala's. I'll inquire about the Theater line. I'll call Chuck Mulhearn back on Saturday, after he gets home.

BTW, I remember a club in Philly, in 1978, called the Second Story. They had double Klipschorns stacked in each corner, with the horns at the top, 8 K-horns in all. In the DJ booth was a rack of Mac amps. Yes, Studio 54 was a bit louder and more flamboyant, with an RLA system that was all JBL. But that Klipsch / MacIntosh system was the cleanest I've ever heard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read thru this to see some of the recomendations.

I recall many PA implementations double stacking cut off lascala bins to put some more excitement into the lower end of the sound spectrum. I think 2 sets of four stacked 2 by 2 was the largest I saw.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Speaking of the lascala bass bins...

There is a "ported bass bin mod" that can be performed and is

completely reversible. It extends the output of the lascala down to

40Hz (requiring some active equalization to protect the woofer from

over excursion due to unloading below the tuning point, but no biggy).

Power-handling pretty much stays the same. Look in the home audio

section of the forum for more info.

When the cost is under $100 per bass bin (including EQ) it's pretty hard to pass up...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read thru this to see some of the recomendations. I recall many PA implementations double stacking cut off lascala bins to put some more excitement into the lower end of the sound spectrum. I think 2 sets of four stacked 2 by 2 was the largest I saw.

My 'normal' setup is a pair of split La Scala's, per side, with the LF cabinets stacked and the HF cabinets on top. When the La Scala's are placed on top of an 18-inch sub the resultant column is a little over eight feet tall. Adding a little delay to the 18's and having the LSI LF's couple seems to work.

When it came time to grow my system, I added the EAW FR-253's. Much more compact than a pair of La Scala's, and much less efficient, they fit the bill as they could be used with the existing SB180 subs as a stand alone system or as short-throw fills. They are a three-way box with two 15's, two 7's and a fair horn. I have used auxilliary tweets (Yamaha) with them and may sweeten them with some 2405's I have. Nothing is perfect.

OTOH, if I were to locate four more LSI-BG splits, I could be interested......

Imagine the possibilities..... And the efficiency. [Y]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...