Outlaw 1050 A/V Receiver - Cherry or Lemon?

[Tron]

Alright, is it just me or is the feature set of the Outlaw 1050 lacking quite a bit, including the stuff that counts - quality and quantity of amplification (or at least what one would hope for in a receiver that is in a $500 - $650 price range).

Why a $500 - $650 price range? Well, the Outlaw 1050 goes for $499 ($500) straight from the manufacturer, Outlawaudio.com , and the receiver I'm comparing it with here is the Denon AVR-2802 which can be had for under $650 from several different sources.

First, the quality and quantity of power issue. It's been stated several times before on this board that most of the speakers we have (Klipsch!) use only around 5-20 watts of power at normal listening levels. But, extra power reserves in your amp determines your "dynamic headroom." So, the more the better, right?

Quantity of power: 8 ohms, 65 watts per channel for the Outlaw 1050 compared to 8 ohms, 90 watts per channel for the Denon AVR-2802 .

Quality amplification is also a factor, and I remember reading in one of the threads here that 0.05% THD on the RMS wattage rating does not necessarily mean the amplifier(s) are producing that clean or purer of a signal at lower levels. I assume most trust the reputation of the brand when accounting for the quality if they cannot hear the system for themselves before the decision is made whether the audition is at the audio shop or at home. This kind of auditioning cannot be done with either brand in my situation (overseas), so I have to rely on reviews and the history of a company. Outlaw audio doesn't have a history yet, but their marketing (their website and pricing structure) looks cheap. Maybe that's just my opinion though.

So, let's look at a few other quality details. The Outlaw specs state that the S/N ratio for their "preamplifier" section is 97dB compared to Denon's analog "DIRECT mode" (I assume these specs are equivalent to that of the "preamplifier" section of the Denon receiver) S/N ratio of 102dB. A S/N ratio of 102dB applies to the digital output of the Denon as well. The S/N ratio for the FM tuner in the Outlaw is rated at 55dB/55dB (mono/stereo) whereas the Denon's S/N ratios are 77dB/72dB. The total harmonic distortion ratings for the FM tuner section of the Outlaw is 1.5%/1.0% (mono/stereo) whereas the Denon's THD ratings are 0.15%/0.3%.

Enough about quality, the difference should be evident by now. How about the features? Well, the two that intrigue me the most are Dolby Prologic II and DTS Neo:6. What are they? Here's some clips:

Dolby Pro Logic II

Dolby Pro-Logic II is a new multi-channel playback format developed by Dolby Laboratories using feedback logic steering technology and offering improvements over conventional Dolby Pro Logic circuits.

Dolby Pro Logic II can be used to decode not only sources recorded in Dolby Surround ( ) but also regular stereo sources into five channels (front left, front right, center, surround left and surround right) to achieve surround sound.

Whereas with conventional Dolby Pro Logic the surround channel playback frequency band was limited, Dolby Pro Logic II offers a wider band range (20 Hz to 20 kHz or greater). In addition, the surround channels were monaural (the surround left and right channels were the same) with previous Dolby Pro Logic, but Dolby Pro Logic II they are played as stereo signals.

Various parameters can be set according to the type of source and the contents, so it is possible to achieve optimum decoding.

DTS Neo:6TM surround

This mode applies conventional 2-channel signals to the high precision digital matrix decoder used for DTS-ES Matrix 6.1 to achieve 6.1- channel surround playback. High precision input signal detection and matrix processing enable full band reproduction (frequency response of 20 Hz to 20 kHz or greater) for all 6.1 channels, and separation between the different channels is improved to the same level as that of a digital discrete system.

DTS Neo:6 surround includes two modes for selecting the optimum decoding for the signal source.

DTS Neo:6 Cinema

This mode is optimum for playing movies. Decoding is performed with emphasis on separation performance to achieve the same atmosphere with 2-channel sources as with 6.1-channel sources. This mode is effective for playing sources recorded in conventional surround formats as well, because the in-phase component is assigned mainly to the center channel © and the reversed phase component to the surround (SL, SR and SB channels).

DTS Neo:6 Music

This mode is suited mainly for playing music. The front channel (FL and FR) signals bypass the decoder and are played directly so there is no loss of sound quality, and the effect of the surround signals output from the center © and surround (SL, SR and SB) channels add a natural sense of expansion to the sound field.

The Denon AVR-2802 has all of the processing features of the Outlaw 1050 (Dolby Prologic, Dolby Digital , DTS ) plus DTS-ES Discrete 6.1, DTS-ES Matrix 6.1, and both of the above DSP features. There is also a multitude of differences in the I/O section of the two receivers (Denon offering more in this area, of course). Is the Outlaw really worth saving $150 (or less) when you are already investing $500 in an A/V receiver?

Just tossing a few facts at ya (and some opinons).

This message has been edited by Tron on 11-06-2001 at 01:01 PM

[Tron]

After studying the documentation for both receivers again, mainly to ensure my above statements were correct, I've discovered something that did not "sink-in" the first time.

The Outlaw 1050 has one (1) 195 watt power amplifier, which they so deceptively label on their specifications as:

Output Six-Channel Surround Mode, Three Channels Driven:

65 watts per channel (8 ohms, 20Hz-20kHz, <0.05% THD)

When three channels are driven, eh?

3 x 65 watts = 1 x 195 watt amplifier.

Oh yeah, and just to re-emphasize, the Denon has 6 discrete 90 watt power amplifiers. I'm pretty sure the benefits of seperate, discrete amplifiers over a single amplifier have been covered somewhere in these forums.

[BigBusa]

Since you put it that way ...! It's hard to recommend the outlaw. I know a few here that have it. Maybe they will step in here.

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My system thus far:

1980 Cornwalls (mains)

1990 Heresy II's (rears)

2001 KLF-C7 (center)

2001 KSW15 (Subwoofer)

HK AVR 510 (reciever - coming soon!)

Kenwood DV402 (DVD)

Sony KV 27V55 (9 year old 27" TV)

[soundog]

The quanity of watts (65/ channel for each of 6 channels) in the Outlaw 1050 may not be as much as some but the quality is very substantal. I have two: one with my Heritage Speakers (Klipschorns & LaSclas) and one with the now discontinued Klipsch THX Home Theater System. This receiver got excellent reviews in a number of publications as well as on www.audioreview.com. It is true that this receiver does not have the latest: Dolby ProLogic II or DTS neo but for $499. it is an incrediably good receiver with sound quality on a par with much more expensive higher end receivers.

[Tron]

After reading several of the reviews over at AudioReview maybe my first impression (through their own website and documentation) may have been a little prejudicial (I was thinking the Outlaw receiver had a very appropriate name for a con-artists' product). However, the facts speak for themselves. Outlaw's own specs compared to Denon's, which I trust.

Also after reading the reviews I've come to the conclusion that most people, after spending $500+ on audio equipment, don't want to be wrong or concede that perhaps they made an error in judgement.

Don't get me wrong, I'm ready and willing to read everything anyone has to say about the Outlaw. But the specifications are very hard to ignore, at least for me.

Maybe I'm just too skeptical... But I have to be. Whatever I order I'm stuck with unless I want to lose between $50-$100 in return shipping costs (I'm overseas).

[mustang6]

My brother has the Outlaw 1050 which is running a pair of ARs it it sounds great. Much better than the Kenwood he replaced.

My dad, being the skeptic that he is decided to get one also to power his KLF30s, RC3, RS3 setup. I set it up for him and did an extensive listening demo. All I have to say about it is it just sounded fantastic. Not harsh just smooth and clean. Don't let the 65wpc fool you. Plenty enough for the Klipsch. The only reason I don't have one is that I have separates.

You are giving up some features, but you need to decide if you will even use those that are only in the Denon. Both products will perform well, but for my money I like the sound of the Outlaw. I have heard the Denon also and it sounded good, but in my opinion not as good as the Outlaw and I would give up features for sound any day. Hope this helps.

Mustang6

[synthfreek]

I recently purchased the Outlaw 1050 to compliment my Klipsch KG 4.2s. I've only used the setup for little over a week and I am truly happy so far. I am not an "audiophile" but I do know what sounds good to me. Outlaw mentions how there isn't really a standard for measuring power ratings and companies are at liberty to rate their power at will. One reason their ratings are so conservative is that the measurements are taken from a full audio spectrum of 20 to 20 where other company's ratings may be from just a 1,000 hz cycle and not taking into account a real life situation. The only thing I don't like that I've discovered so far is the headphone feature. The Yamaha I upgraded from had the ability to turn off the main speakers completely. You can't do this with the Outlaw. I often listen to music very late at night with my Grado headphones(which I won't start raving about here but if you haven't heard a pair please do so). This is what kinda sucks. When you plug your headphones in it engages the headphone mode and silences the rest of the speakers. All good so far UNLESS the jack gets yanked out of the socket. All of a sudden at 3am your speakers will be fed a huge amount of power and your walls will shake. It's already happened once. Other than that I'm quite pleased. One thing that doesn't interest me are all the different Jazz, Stadium, Concert settings that are a total waste.

This message has been edited by synthfreek on 11-06-2001 at 07:25 PM

[soundog]

Dennon spends a great deal on advertising, on its sales/distribution network, etc. The stores it sells through have significant markups, have to pay for the cost of inventory , expensive real estate, salesman's salaries, commisions, field reps,etc. Outlaw sell's direct over the internet eliminating or greatly reducing cost and overhead - thus greater value for the consumer. Then there's the sales tax factor in many locations. However, you're right you can not hear it in a showroom which may or may not offer a great environment for comparison, by the way. Yet in almost all retail cases you can return items within a specified time frame for a full refund ( especially important with speakers). While Outlaw's customer service is FAR more knowledgeable and helpful than most store personnel, having a live relationship with a knowledgable sales person if you can find a good one is worth a lot also. Difficult decision.

[Diggs]

I have a Denon, and my dad just bought the Outlaw 1050. He is just now putting together a H/T system so he had no speakers to listen to surround sound. But when I played a TV source through it into his crappy BSR (who the hell are they?) speakers and compared it to my system in the same mode, his was superior. Hopefully he will have speakers when I go up for Thanksgiving break and I can do a more complete review.

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Denon AVR-2800

KG-4 mains (too bad the rest of my speakers aren't this good)

Polk C-175 center (it's ok)

Infinity RS-10 Surrounds (suck)

Audiosource SW-15 subwoofer (excellent sub for it's price)

Pioneer DV333 DVD

Sony 5 disc CD player

All in a 12x12 apartment bedroom.

"What?! I can't hear you!"

[decibel man]

Try the Outlaw out, they have a pretty impressive guarantee of satisfactiion. You can't really loose.

[Tron]

Diggs,

Don't forget to have a few listening 'sessions' while at your father's during thanksgiving. I'm definitely interested in getting your review/opinion on the sound quality between your Denon and his Outlaw.

As far as my receiver choice, after reading through these forums and other reviews around the net, I've decided to just save up for a Denon AVR 3802.

Has anyone else checked out Denon's documentation for this baby? It has everything I need, including all the latest surround algorithms and has an Analog Devices SHARC 32-bit floating-point DSP to decode them all. What can I say, I'm a DSP freak; but I also want clean amplification with plenty of 'dynamic headroom.'