Are loudness and tone controls necessary?

[Speedball]

So for those of us who do have tone controls, is it better to leave them at the neutral (12:00) setting? I know it's all up to me in the end

You answered your own question...........[] When I set mine straight up in the middle (neutral) the sound is waaaaaaay too muddy and closed in.

[wuzzzer]

With my first system I had a 10 band/channel EQ that I bought from Best Buy. I think I mainly bought it because I thought the digital EQ display looked cool.

With my current setup I usually have the EQ flat, except for unusually bright recordings where I lower the treble by 1 or 2dB from 1.0kHz on up.

[jacksonbart]

I think most people would be better off if they used this instead of the loudness and tone controls.

[jdm56]

There's no getting around the Fletcher-Munson curves. As spl drops, human sensitivity to bass sounds drop faster. IOW, our low-frequency hearing isn't linear. True though, as has been said, most loudness compensation circuits are "dumb", providing a fixed boost regardless of level. Some Yamahas still have a much better set-up, one that allows you to more or less dial in the bass so that it stays relatively flat even as the volume is turned up or down.

As for tone controls, if they are well-designed, it's nice to at least have them available if you need them -especially if they can be switched out of the circuit when not needed.

What I think would be very, very useful is a 2-3 band parametric EQ that operates only up to about 300 Hz or so. That would be just the ticket for taming those ornery room resonances. After all, their is no more pernicious "un"-equalizer than most of our listening rooms!

[garyrc]

To jbsl, and anyone who knows,

Wow, are Luxman components still available? I thought they went out of business, at least in home audio. I looked high and low in 2004, trying to replace one that self-destructed (after 24 years of hard use). Here's why I'm interested:

The only tone controls I ever really liked were on a c1980 Luxman component; there were many choices of turnover frequency. I generally used the very highest turnover on the treble, which produced a very steep curve that had low magnitude --- at full clockwise (almost never used) it boosted by only 7 dB at 16K Hz (as opposed to 15 to 20 dB on many treble controls). For almost all recordings I used about a 2 O'clock position, with the highest turnover, which added a little spice to the Klipschorn K-77 tweeters in my room, mostly at 10K and above, sloping upward to a maximum of just a few dB (about 3, if I remember correctly) at 16 K --- very subtle, but distinctly audible, and very welcome. I used the bypass switch to compare, and nearly always preferred the slight boost with clean recordings.

A few dull recordings were helped by more boost, but most remained the ears of sows.

[stormin]

To jbsl, and anyone who knows,

Wow, are Luxman components still available? I thought they went out of business, at least in home audio. I looked high and low in 2004, trying to replace one that self-destructed (after 24 years of hard use). Here's why I'm interested:

The only tone controls I ever really liked were on a c1980 Luxman component; there were many choices of turnover frequency. I generally used the very highest turnover on the treble, which produced a very steep curve that had low magnitude --- at full clockwise (almost never used) it boosted by only 7 dB at 16K Hz (as opposed to 15 to 20 dB on many treble controls). For almost all recordings I used about a 2 O'clock position, with the highest turnover, which added a little spice to the Klipschorn K-77 tweeters in my room, mostly at 10K and above, sloping upward to a maximum of just a few dB (about 3, if I remember correctly) at 16 K --- very subtle, but distinctly audible, and very welcome. I used the bypass switch to compare, and nearly always preferred the slight boost with clean recordings.

A few dull recordings were helped by more boost, but most remained the ears of sows.

I believe they are still made and sold today but only in Japan or overseas. I also believe they only produce the very high end of home audio.

I also agree with your assessment of Luxman tone controls. The L-580 integrate that i use as a pre does an outstanding job IMHO with tone controls.

[sunnysal]

there are tone controls and tone controls. A BBE is all the way on "the dark side" of the continium. while well implemented bass and treble controls (like the resistors ladders on the vintage marantz preamps) do not degrade the sound and privide the ability to adjust the tone to tweak the wide varitey of recording out there. If everything out there was well recorded I would not need it, as it is, I find myself tweaking the tone controls once or twice a week for specific LP or CD. Tony

[Jay481985]

I think its sorta like a cellphone, one of those super duper cellphones that does everything. Its great to know you have it but I none the less will be honest in not using more than 20% of the capability of my cellphone. Other than calling, texting, etc I doubt I need internet capable, voice activating blah blah blah. Just as with the more controls for audio, the less likely we are going to get off our rumps or pick up that remote and adjust for every song, unless its automatic. I think it just drives me mad to do that.

I think the point of technology going too far is the BMW idrive that forces you to go through 8 different menus to get to the radio to change the station. That caused alot of people to give up listening to radio or pull over cause they are gonna crash their car looking at the damn lcd. All because they wanted to minimize buttons.

[jbsl]

"Wow, are Luxman components still available?"

Yes Luxman is still in business in Japan making excellent equipment.

This link is to their current product catalog in English.

http://www.luxman.org/product_catalog/default/index.html

I bought my 2004 Luxman L505f Int amp from a website called Audiocubes 2. They sell only Japanese audio equipment, link below to their Luxman products.

http://www.audiocubes2.com/brand/Luxman.html?sort=3a&page=1&osCsid=548ced23548b03fb32ff636fd2ac4ba5

My best friend had a early 80s Luxman preamp and La Scalas that got me hooked on both Luxman and Klipsch.

So when I bought a pair of 2004 La Scalas I had to upgrade my system to get a better sound from them.

All the Luxman products with tone controls I have listened to and used have not degraded the sound quality.

The majority of cds I listen to I don't adjust the tone controls but there are too many bad recordings that need just a tweak to make them bearable when listening.

Tone controls like everything in this hobby is a personal prefrence to what sounds good to each individual.

I respect the opinion of people who do not like tone controls and I'm not trying to convice them that they are wrong. But with my experience and equipment I like tone controls.

[jbsl]

"I think most people would be better off if they used this instead of the loudness and tone controls."

Thanks jacksonbart I tried your tweak and the good recorded cd sound even better.

But the bad recorded cds sound even worse now. Wait a minute a little more bass, less treble AH much better.

[steve]

I use to use tone controls on everything..but thru the years, I have changed my ways (thanx to this BB, and experimenting) but I do like having the choice. Most of the time, the bass/treble are set at neutral..but on some bass/weak recordings (some of my Van Halen CDs come to mind) I will bump up the bass a notch or two..

It's nice having it if you need it..but most of the time you really don't.

Steve

[sunburnwilly]

Nope , never touch the stuff .

[garyrc]

Re: Luxman:

Thanks jbsl and stormin.

I wonder what happened to their American distributer to stores.

[jacksonbart]

"I think most people would be better off if they used this instead of the loudness and tone controls."

Thanks jacksonbart I tried your tweak and the good recorded cd sound even better.

But the bad recorded cds sound even worse now. Wait a minute a little more bass, less treble AH much better.

You can try these, to tone down those highs real quick.

I still say the greatest audio tweek is ?? Not magic pebbles but sleeping with ear plugs and then after waking up, leave them in and go que up some of your favorite music, remove the plugs and enjoy. Its like they say a near death experiance makes you enjoy life more, well a near deaf experiance makes you enjoy and hear the music more.

[jt1stcav]

I, too have used tone controls on both my Carver C-1 and C-4000 preamps, and I have no problems with their use if they're used judiciously.

But since I've owned my latest linestage tube preamp, with only gain and selector controls, I also found that I don't really miss 'em all that much...whatever floats your boat, I always say.

Obviously there are those who still believe in well designed tone controls...another high-end manufacturer who still believes in their proper usage has been McIntosh. Look at how many preamp models they have built over the years that use them![]

[Bill Cain]

I think it's great to have any controls that you can get. That said, it's not always wise to use them and you should never use them to compensate for system deficiencies. I only use them to compensate for program material variance.

I go to great lengths to have a balanced system. I will describe my current EAW system. I also have a Quad La Scala system, which used the same subs but different amps.

Dual 18" subs operate from 35 to 125 Hz off of one side of a MA-3600vz. Lows are handled by four 15" drivers, running off the other side of the same amp, from 45 to 500 hz. A second MA-3600vz is driving the four 7" mids and the two 2" horns in a stereo configuration from 500 to 20 KHz. A DriveRack feeds the amps with a flat signal. I may use it to establish feedback notches, but room acoustics are so variable when a crowd arrives, so I don't usually worry about that.

My Rane MP-2016 mixer has full-cut, three band tone controls. I leave them in the 12 O'Clock (disabled) position. The mixer adds nothing to the program material, as these are summed to a flat response.

I have a Rane XP-2016 Processor with six channels of full-cut, three band tone controls. (One channel for every input.) So each source of program material has its' own tone controls. These controls are as follows:

Treble - 4K; shelving

Mid - 300 to 4K; bandpass

Bass - 300; shelving

When set at "12 O'Clock," the summed response is flat from 20 to 10K with a drop of about 4dB at 50k.

I admit to using an Aphex 204 to mildly "sweeten" the program material. The jury is still out on this. I'm still learning its' characteristics and limitations. I use the XP-2016 to compensate ONLY for variance in sources. But at all times I can disable either the XP and / or the 204 with switches on the MP-2016.

So, I am a great fan of controls. As long as YOU are in control of THEM. They are a tool for compensating for program material variance; not system shortcomings.

I want my systems to playback everything from Elmore James to Frank Sinatra to Z Z Top. By having a flat system with tons of headroom, I can play anything and it sounds great. Thanks to tone controls......

[jbsl]

I hooked up my Ground Grid tube preamp with my 3 watt 2A3 Set Moondog amps and have been perfectly happy with the sound. A very good tube preamp and amp can make a big difference.

However I have been playing only cds that are very well recorded. If I started playing the bad recorded cds I would want some tone controls. With the equipment I'm running right now I would have to turn the volume down by at least 1/3 with bad recorded cds. More like background music when talking to someone.

When I use tone controls on the bad sounding cds it's not like all of a sudden they start sounding incredible. On many the only way to make them sound better is to turn them off. But on many tone controls help to make them sound a little better and can listen to them.

When I use my Luxman and play the cds that are very well recorded I don't have the urge to use the tone controls.

Use them, don't use them whatever makes you happy. But like many things in this hobby until you experiment with equipment and ideas you can never be sure if you like or dislike the equipment or idea or tweak.

[jbsl]

"I wonder what happened to their American distributer to stores"

Sometime back in the early to mid 80s Alpine bought Luxman. They tried to market a line of Luxman products for people who were not Audiophiles but wanted a better sounding system than the average person. I bought one of these stereo recievers in 89 and another one in 92. My Heresys sounded very good with them.

I think they were still making audiophile equipment but it was only being sold in Japan, Asia, and Europe. Luxman dealers in the US stopped carrying Luxman because their clients wanted the audiophile equipment not the audio enthusist equipment. So Luxman focused on audiophile equipment in Japan and Asia. I heard most of this from other forums so I'm sure this might have been one of the reasons Luxman left the US.

I contacted Luxman and they said they have been looking for a US distributor but nothing yet. I doubt they will ever come back.

There is a Luxman forum at Yahoo that deals with vintage Luxman gear.

[jbsl]

People may not realize how good of a suggestion the earwax remover is and the earplug for tweaks. 4 years ago the hearing in my right ear started to fade. It sounded like I had a earplug in the ear. I used the earwax cleaner in both ears. It was like jacksonbart said "remove the plugs and enjoy." except in my case it was remove the earwax. I did notice how good my system sounded afterwards.

But I still say the same thing

Thanks jacksonbart I tried your second tweak and the good recorded cd sound even better than with the first tweak. Don't even need no stinking tone controls now.

But the bad recorded cds sound even worse now with the second tweak. Wait a minute a little more bass, less treble AH much better. Guess I'll keep the tone controls.

[Bill Cain]

Use them, don't use them whatever makes you happy. But like many things in this hobby until you experiment with equipment and ideas you can never be sure if you like or dislike the equipment or idea or tweak.

As Rocky Balboa might say, "Absolutely!!!" []

Until you actually play with everything in the signal chain, you'll never know what you've got... or can have. There are so many variables that we mere mortals cannot predict the final results with perfect certainty. But you can have fun trying.......

I also find myself being more critical of the source material. I suspect that is because the sound system has surpassed some source material, in the ability to reproduce reality, thereby revealing the source material's short-comings.