Out of phase tests on Khorns

[Kudret]

Hi Tom,

Sorry about the confusion and thank you for your efforts to help me solve this problem. Probably we should have a glossary for soundstage, imaging, and similar terms on the forum to establish a common understanding.

I am aware of some recordings where the main vocal is off centered (female vocal on The Girl From Ipanema on Getz/Gilberto CD or Kinderspiele by Ester Ofarims, at least that's how they sound on my system - LOL). In my tests, I am using very recent recordings where the vocals are centered.

To me the sweet spot is where I can hear the main vocal clearly and in the center. I start where the two imaginary lines from toed-in speakers intersect and move slightly back and forth until I can hear a clear (focused) sound. Then, at the same spot I expect (and would be more than happy) to get a 2-D soundstage, i.e., instruments aligned on the imaginary straight line from the left speaker to the right. I am not cocerned about the "depth" at this point.

I am not sure what you mean when you say the the sound is too "big".

Does this mean the instruments are spread too wide, or that an

individual instrument seems "large"? Again it is difficult too use

words for these things. If the instruments are localized left to right

but their position seems to jump around, then that is typically room

acoustics.

What I mean is individual instruments seems large and the singer seems to have 3' wide lips. When the speakers are in the corners, I cannot find a spot where the vocal is focused.

Kudret

[kerryson]

Hello ! Sorry for your phasing problems. Years ago, 1966, I had a problem with my K- horns. I called Paul and he suggested it was a source issue. He was correct ! Room acoustics play a big part in perceived accuracy. Hot spots, cavities, like doors, bay windows, etc and furniture placement all determine the total soundstage. Send me a diagram of your setup and I will try to make some suggestions, Kerryson

[DrWho]

Would you happen to have any other speakers available to your diposal

that you know are completely functional? Perhaps something like a

heresy? I would recommend listening to another set of speakers

positioned in the corners where the khorns would be (if something like

a heresy, just set them on top upside down - don't forget to put a

cloth inbetween).

If you have the same issue with another set of speakers then it's not

your khorns. If the issue goes away, then it is your khorns.

So if the same issue resides with different speakers, then you need to

verify whether or not it is a room problem. To do this, you'll need to

drag your speakers into another room, preferably outside, and see if

things sound normal. If things sound normal, then it is most likely the

room. If things sound wierd, then it is most likely your upstream

equipment.

The first thing I'd check with upstream equipment is your amplifier.

Perhaps you've got a tube going bad? Is your bias and all that annoying

stuff calibrated correctly?

What you want to try and do is eliminate one possible variable at a

time. Step backwards through the signal path and located where the

issue begins.

Btw, the reason I suggest sitting on the floor right at the crossing

point of the khorns is because that is where they image best. I've been

in rooms where the khorns sound downright awful except for a very tiny

sweet spot. A lot of the descriptions you're using are how I would

describe the sound of khorns outside the sweet spot.

[kerryson]

DrWho has many correct answers. Keep trying ! The K-Horns are worth it. Kerryson

[Lascaladan]

When speaking of soundstage and imaging, the speaker placement to each other, to the room and to the listener are all quite critical. I have heard Khorns in various rooms and setups. Some had a wonderful soundstage, some had a "hole" in the middle. PWK used a Belle as center fill. This created (at the time) 3 independent mono channels in the front. Lets say a room is 12 x 20, the Khorns are set up in the corners along the 20 ft wall, the listener, seated a distance of say 11ft from the front wall, might very well experience this "hole". This thread needs feedback from all the Khorn owners out there(many). What I am speaking of is different than speakers being out of phase with one another, but has been experienced by me and others I know. If we all had corners and the proper rooms, all of us Lascala owners would own the Khorns. I love my Lascalas, don't get me wrong, but I have heard a "perfect" setup of Khorns, and it was quite amazing. Dan

[Erland]

May I suggest the test and sampler CD from Stereophile.

Track 2 on the CD has helped me a lot when working on phase, imaging and listeningposition. The track contains examples of a Fender base guitar played first in separate channels, and then out of phase and last in phase. Since the test "singal" contains not only a tone, but a real instrument, it is so much easier to determine when things fall into place.

I am sorry to say I do not have it with me, and will not have it in my possesion for another 8 days, but if you can wait that long, I can send it to you by email.

Regards

Erland

Could I get a copy too? I am having a bass issue in a room and want to check phasing of the individual drivers.

Thanks,

Chris

Cris,

I have filled up your mailbox with test and reference sigals.

If you empty it, I will send some more...

[Kudret]

Erland, I guess you did not get my email. Please check your PM.

Kudret

EDIT: Both of my email messages to you bounced back.

[toomanyspeakers]

Getting back to the original question. My speakers are about 25 feet apart and I am sitting about 12 feet from each of them. or about 10 or so feet from the front wall. I think the amp is ok its a Mac MT200. Other speakers do inage better in the same room but I do have the flexability to move them around. I do have the stereophile disc and havent thought of using it but I will to check phasing. The speakers were built in November of 2005 so are pretty new. I do have to reduce the bass control due to the speakers sounding boomy in the 100hz area.