Anyone heard the Tangent T-5000(s)???

[ummagumma-89]

On 3/26/2021 at 11:51 AM, moray james said:

Remember that it is the reflex vent (or a passive radiator which amounts to the same action) which damps the woofer in the cabinet. Any additional damping material is going to be in there for other reasons such as catching upper out of band response from the woofer which you don't want singing inside of the cabinet and or leaking out through the vent (here is where a passive works in your favor as it filters out some of the out or band response through the passive cone) and last to gain some apparent cabinet volume. You also want to remember that with a reflex cabinet you must have an open volume of air (with zero damping material, this applies to reflex vents as well as passive radiators) which is free to go into resonance, this is what connects the woofer to the vent so the system can work. You can have some damping on the walls but that is only going to be there to catch and diminish some of that out of band woofer response I mentioned. I hope this helps.

Thanks moray, This was how they came from factory. improving this type of system seems complicated, only willing to experiment with dampening and where it should go. 

[moray james]

6 hours ago, ummagumma-89 said:

Thanks moray, This was how they came from factory. improving this type of system seems complicated, only willing to experiment with dampening and where it should go. 

well if what you want to do is to catch the out of band woofer response which is a good idea then you could place a 3/4" piece of open cell foam on the bottom of the cabinet on the sides from the bottom to about 4I past the top of the woofer and on the back from the bottom up to the same height as on the sides. You might experiment with a piece to cover the top to see if that helps. The horn body and motor will act as a diffusor up in the top of the cabinet which is a good thing (so will any installed brace work). This is a good experiment for you and will help to educated your ear. You can't do anything which will cause a problem to the loudspeaker and you can back track any change that you make back to where ever you liked the sound best. Don't obscure a passive or a vent with damping or put any damping into a vent tube. You can experiment with this to learn just what it dose there is no harm other than to decrease the performance of the passive or vent. If any of your woofer or passive  mounting screw holes get loose (won't tighten up) all you have to do is to get some of the flat softwood tooth picks and some white wood glue. fill the loose screw hole with white wood glue and stuff in a tooth pick or two both pre wet with glue into the screw holes let set 15 minutes then trim off any part of the then tooth pick sticking out of the hole. The screw will easily compress the wood of the tooth pick into the compressed mdf or plywood of the cabinet and the glue will soak into the surrounding wood firming it up. The glue will not bond to the screw and will be easy to remove later. Hope this helps. Happy experimenting.

[ummagumma-89]

Absolutely Moray, I had thought of separating the woofer area from the mids and highs with a piece of foam, similar to how the heresy 2 came. I figure it would help divide up the cabinet and produce more pressure to the rad. 

The best experiment I have had funny enough, was stuffing a bit of insulation behind the door and head speakers in my 95 chevy. Along with my 8 inch vented sub. It originally had polyfil and the fyl was blocking the port. I Replaced the polyfil with insulation and left space for the port, it is night and day 20 times better to my ears. Even the door speakers and head level 4x6's are absolutely amazing now. Never seen the dinky woofers move untill I glued some insulation behind the speaker magnets. They are some jvc gto 4x6's, anyways they sound great now. A great experiment to learn with. 

Thanks for the screw hole trick too, The tangents are starting to get upset with me being in and out of the speaker cavitys. Great idea

[moray james]

5 hours ago, ummagumma-89 said:

Absolutely Moray, I had thought of separating the woofer area from the mids and highs with a piece of foam, similar to how the heresy 2 came. I figure it would help divide up the cabinet and produce more pressure to the rad. 

The best experiment I have had funny enough, was stuffing a bit of insulation behind the door and head speakers in my 95 chevy. Along with my 8 inch vented sub. It originally had polyfil and the fyl was blocking the port. I Replaced the polyfil with insulation and left space for the port, it is night and day 20 times better to my ears. Even the door speakers and head level 4x6's are absolutely amazing now. Never seen the dinky woofers move untill I glued some insulation behind the speaker magnets. They are some jvc gto 4x6's, anyways they sound great now. A great experiment to learn with. 

Thanks for the screw hole trick too, The tangents are starting to get upset with me being in and out of the speaker cavitys. Great idea

no don't block off the top area of the cabinet as I said you could place some foam on the underside of the top and then between the foam and the scattering diffraction of the horn you will scatter and damp (at the same time) any out of band lower mid coming off the woofer which finds its way up to the top of the cabinet. Your crossover is around 750 Hz so at 1500Hz those frequencies are only 12 db down in level. Keep the resonating volume as open and large as you can as that makes for a stronger resonance and you need that resonance to form a powerful resonance which will couple the woofer to the vent or passive, the stronger that resonance the more volume of air you have coupling the vent and the woofer together the better.

[TimBo]

On 3/29/2021 at 7:39 AM, moray james said:

well if what you want to do is to catch the out of band woofer response which is a good idea then you could place a 3/4" piece of open cell foam on the bottom of the cabinet on the sides from the bottom to about 4I past the top of the woofer and on the back from the bottom up to the same height as on the sides. You might experiment with a piece to cover the top to see if that helps. The horn body and motor will act as a diffusor up in the top of the cabinet which is a good thing (so will any installed brace work). This is a good experiment for you and will help to educated your ear. You can't do anything which will cause a problem to the loudspeaker and you can back track any change that you make back to where ever you liked the sound best. Don't obscure a passive or a vent with damping or put any damping into a vent tube. You can experiment with this to learn just what it dose there is no harm other than to decrease the performance of the passive or vent. If any of your woofer or passive  mounting screw holes get loose (won't tighten up) all you have to do is to get some of the flat softwood tooth picks and some white wood glue. fill the loose screw hole with white wood glue and stuff in a tooth pick or two both pre wet with glue into the screw holes let set 15 minutes then trim off any part of the then tooth pick sticking out of the hole. The screw will easily compress the wood of the tooth pick into the compressed mdf or plywood of the cabinet and the glue will soak into the surrounding wood firming it up. The glue will not bond to the screw and will be easy to remove later. Hope this helps. Happy experimenting.

 

I also have a set of T-5000's and finally finished with the "working parts. Here is what I have completed, Crites titanium tweeter diaphragms, OE midrange diaphragms, Crites CW1230 woofers, and new Crites crossovers built for the T-5000 and added Dynamat to the outside of the horns. First thing I noticed is that my set had never been opened before and yet there was no ferrofluid in the tweeters or midrange speakers. I double checked the model number on the rear sticker and original part numbers on the individual parts and they all add up to these being T-5000's not T-500's. I thought that was a little strange.

 I am at the stage of patching/repairing the cabinets and was considering adding some 1 inch dowel rod braces to the cabinets. 2 from front to rear between the passive and woofer. 2 from front to rear between the woofer and mid. I would also add at least 2 from side to side that would be linked to the 2 pair that run front to rear. And of course adding the 3/4 acoustic foam as appropriate.

 

 So that brings me to ask two questions.

1. You mentioned "diffusor up in the top of the cabinet which is a good thing (so will any installed brace work)". Would what I'm proposing as additional bracing also be a "good thing" with these P.R. boxes?

2. Should I add the ferrofluid to the diaphragms?

 

P.S. I am running these on a Denon AVR-5803 170 w/ch receiver.

 

Thank TimBo

[OO1]

3 hours ago, TimBo said:

 

 

2. Should I add the ferrofluid to the diaphragms?

 

 

 Ferrofluid can be added , but the Crites titanium diaphragms are not  designed for adding ferro fluid , whereas the klipsch OE midrange diapghragms can be used with or without ferro-fluid---

[TimBo]

11 minutes ago, RandyH001 said:

 Ferrofluid can be added , but the Crites titanium diaphragms are not  designed for adding ferro fluid , whereas the klipsch OE midrange diapghragms can be used with or without ferro-fluid---

 

 Thank you for the quick response on the ferrofluid. Seeing that the original brochures state that the T-5000's had the added ferrofluid, I will most likely add it, but to the midrange only.  I understand that the ferrofluid can help "smooth" the speaker response and these midranges seem to be a tiny bit "up front" without it.

 

 TimBo

[OO1]

2 hours ago, TimBo said:

 

 Thank you for the quick response on the ferrofluid. Seeing that the original brochures state that the T-5000's had the added ferrofluid, I will most likely add it, but to the midrange only.  I understand that the ferrofluid can help "smooth" the speaker response and these midranges seem to be a tiny bit "up front" without it.

 

 TimB

the Ferrofluid helps to cool the assembly , i doubt it changes the sound as such , that tiny bit up front   will ease after the break-in of the diaphragm  , give it time , they will settle in --

[TimBo]

I agree that the primary purpose of the fluid is for voice coil cooling by adding a thermal transfer interface between the coil and the motor. I've also seen test results of before and after the addition of the fluid which do show there are subtle changes to the speaker response curve. But, as I said, I agree the heat issue is primary and will use it for that reason as well since I'm pushing these pretty hard with the Avr-5803.

 I have around 100 hours on these since I replaced all the parts and much of that has been at reference level volume.  At that level is where I'm noticing the cabinet resonance is pronounced and why I'm prepared to add the braces. Because the cabinets are so thin I would actually use countersunk screws and glue to fix the braces to the cabinet walls and that would be hard to reverse. That's why I'm so concerned if adding the braces as I've proposed is a good idea. If only I had a real wood workshop......

 

 

P.S. Machinist by trade and much of that spent working within +/- .0005 tolerances. 

[billybob]

Try the dowels in a temporary way just to see if you like the sound.

Easily reversed in mind.

Welcome to the forum

@TimBo

[billybob]

2 hours ago, TimBo said:

. Machinist by trade and much of that spent working within +/- .0005 tolerances. 

Another is just doing 1 speaker to compare.

Could even temporary brace the outside just to hear, feel.

[OO1]

3 hours ago, TimBo said:

 

P.S. Machinist by trade and much of that spent working within +/- .0005 tolerances. 

+/- .0005 tolerances.  that's extremely  humble  as far as quality control --

[TimBo]

3 minutes ago, RandyH001 said:

+/- .0005 tolerances.  that's extremely  humble  as far as quality control --

 

Haha,, yep. It's one of the reasons when I'm working with wood and I'm off 1/32 it drives me nuts. Kinda goes against the grain.

[moray james]

On 6/15/2021 at 9:34 PM, TimBo said:

 

 

 So that brings me to ask two questions.

1. You mentioned "diffusor up in the top of the cabinet which is a good thing (so will any installed brace work)". Would what I'm proposing as additional bracing also be a "good thing" with these P.R. boxes?

2. Should I add the ferrofluid to the diaphragms?

 

 

 

Thank TimBo

some brace work is going to be better than no brace work, this is minimal so don't expect a big difference.

ferrofluid can have more or less impact upon driver damping (internal resonances) depends on the driver. The correct viscosity would be required and you don't know what that was so you are in the dark. A generic shot in the dark will at the least provide some extra heat transfer. Get some and try it, if you like it leave it in if you don't remove it.

[absolve2525]

I don't think the midranges on these ever had ferrofluid. I've never seen it in any Klipsch home midrange compression drivers. Tweeters yes, midrange no. Cool speakers! Sounds like a fun project. 

[TimBo]

52 minutes ago, absolve2525 said:

I don't think the midranges on these ever had ferrofluid. I've never seen it in any Klipsch home midrange compression drivers. Tweeters yes, midrange no. Cool speakers! Sounds like a fun project. 

 

 You may be correct as this is all I have found which states the addition of the ferrofluid.

 

Tangent 1000 series.pdf (d2um2qdswy1tb0.cloudfront.net)

 

[Generg]

I just bought a used Tangent 4000. I hope it is no problem to show the crossover.

Only two small changes compared to the Heresy II.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Generg

[billybob]

11 minutes ago, Generg said:

I just bought a used Tangent 4000. I hope it is no problem to show the crossover.

Only two small changes compared to the Heresy II.

Cool... enjoy and give us a pic of speaker(s)...

@Generg

Edited October 10, 2022 by billybob

[MicroMara]

be careful boys ..  @Generg is a quiet experienced german speaker builder 😂 We´re friends !

[billybob]

Just now, MicroMara said:

be careful boys ..  @Generg is a quiet experienced german speaker builder 😂 We´re friends !

We'll handle him with Kid gloves...