stormin Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 I see this word thrown around all over the internet at many various sites. What does it mean to you? I like to think it is a state of being. It's an emotional event getting away from stereo equipment and into the performers. For me its when my foots a tappin and heads a bobbin and fingers are a snappin. Some folks say you need this or that. More times than not it turns into a huge Tube vs SS debate. Or the audiophiles step forward and talk about soundstage beyond the room boundaries. And depth of image farther than the eye can see. Or instruments floating in pockets of air each in there own space and time. I have experienced alot of this to a certain extent with various peices of gear and speakers. But the more i would move into the realm of almost unatural i would find myself listening more to the equipment and not to the performers. To me it really is about the music making ya want to boogie across the floor IMHO. Anyone else have their take on musical? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 I use the term to describe how certain instruments sound in my system compared to tthe actual instruments I hear at home or the kid's school performances. Used to have an old piano to use a a reference but it was too ugly and large got rid of it about 5 months ago. 2 of my kids play the french horn. We have a drum set in the house for my snare drum, kick drum and cybal references. Flute and guitar get played occassionally. I try to hear a youth orchestra once every 2-3 months to keep my "ears and mind" up to date. Attack and decay; how soft or how dramatic of a note on a certain instrument and how it is reproduced has to do with musical. Abscence of compression or clipping. And of course is the music coming more from the speakers (YUCK) or the space between, above, and outside the speakers. Techno and rap can get you to boogie across the floor; but generally have few real instuments to refer to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 I use it when referring to subs when talking about those that reproduce a wealth of tones accurately and with similar volume and timbre. Too many subs are just Thud, Thud, Thud. With my Klispch THX subs, when Chris Squire of Yes steps on his bass pedals and goes from one note the next, I hear not only the frequency shift, but the bit of time delay and doppler that would occur in an onstage amplification rig trying to heave out those low tones. Likewise, I can hear the detail of rotosound strings rattling on the fretboard and the wealth of processing in his bass rig. Fuzz, envelope follower, flanging all can be heard with detail and accuracy. This requires not just good specs in a sub, but exceptional transient response and low distortion, something many do not have. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 Many thoughtful views here -- [edit:] DeanG's thread Musical or Accurate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 Music is Magic..........You do not need equipment to enjoy the Magic..........Music was here long before equipment........................Music will be here when the equipment is gone...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 A good quote from an old post; not mine. ============================== If you're aiming for accuracy to the original performance, forget it. Reasonable semblance to reality, yes, but THE TRUTH, no way. The original performance goes through microphones, microphone preamps, a mixer, and a recorder of some kind, just to name the big items. Then you've got a producer and engineers who change the recording to their tastes. Then you've got the final mastering engineer, who is not listening to the recording with anything remotely like what you'll be listening to it with. The best you can hope for is what Steve Hoffman calls the breath of life, which is when a recording played back can help to create the illusion that a performer is actually alive in your listening room. The listener has to suspend disbelief to experience the breath of life, of course, unless he's psychotic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 it captures a feeling. usually more intense when played through equipment that is harmonically, tonally, dynamically, and rhythmically correct, based on the listener's perceptions. Procol Harum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 I am not a big fan of Musicals. You can keep West Side Story and 42nd Street. Just not my cup of tea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAPTORMAN Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 *************************************************** soundstage beyond the room boundaries. And depth of image farther than the eye can see. Or instruments floating in pockets of air each in there own space and time. ***************************************************************************** Hmm......You just described my listening room.[][] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 I am not a big fan of Musicals. You can keep West Side Story and 42nd Street. Just not my cup of tea. I bet you liked HAIR, you just won't admit it.............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 I think it's a generic term often used to describe the differences between gear/recordings when it's difficult to quantify the actual difference. It is completely subjective and highly dependant on your state of mind at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 There are lots of ways to describe "musicality". Mostly, they are the "intangibles" - those things that are not quantifiable via measurements or specifications, but nevertheless exist. To borrow Steve Hoffman's phrase, musical systems possess "The breath of life". I've heard theoretically more "accurate" systems, but sound very "mechanical". OTOH, I've heard systems that measure specwise as "less accurate" than other systems (my own system included in these) that I find sounds more like real instruments and is more involving. I have similar experiences with tubes. I find, for example, that the Amperex Bugle Boy small tubes have a more "organic" sound - less mechanical, and more like the real instruments - as well as being an accurate sounding tube. Musicality is a big reason I (as well as others) seek out specific tubes for our gears. Most tubes will have that gear meeting spec - but the RIGHT tube will impart those intangible qualities to our musical and listening taste. This is also why you see forum members go "capacitor crazy". Which is not to say that solid state cannot impart these desireable qualities - they can - but the tube rolling simply allows for much more tweakability to get the most preferable sound. Michael's subwoofer example is another good observance of "musicality". And more to the point, I agree with you, stormin, as a musical system (to the listener) allows him/her to forget the gear, and to be immersed in a musical experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 and rhythmically correct, Procol Harum OoooHH , No .... not PRaT, again ... where you been hangin' out ..?? let me guess ..AA Amplifiers... do not have "Timing" ... they are passive devices small signal in > Larger Signal out ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 An accurate system should be musical, and a musical system should be accurate. You can't have one without the other. The more of one must by inference, mean more of the other. Otherwise there's something wrong with the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormin Posted July 30, 2006 Author Share Posted July 30, 2006 It appears that there are many ways to describe a musical system. I find it great to understand how others here on the forum perceive musical. For example, now with Audio Flynn i understand he is referring to the realism of the instruments. So in the future i will understand what he is referring too when he uses that statement. But i have to shrug when you bring up rap. I didnt realize you could boogie to it. Not condeming it by any means just dont understand it i guess. I thought this thread might be able to help many new comers and old members as well see a clearer picture as to what members are referring too when they are talking about equipment that they enjoy or recommend. I guess i do find on some music when i come home after a tough day i just like to sit and relax to it. Other days i find myself falling deeper into the performances. If it is smooth and sounds good to my ears i am enjoying. And i do believe as CP1 alludes that the peformance needs to have the lower registers filled as well. Drums are so intense live. The slam and impact as a good drummer runs his set is just unreal. Having that sound through your system is quite an achievement. Then again there are so many instruments to achieive total satisfaction. I dont know if we all will agree on amplification or preamplification or sources but one thing we do agree on around here is that Klipsh comes about as close as we can find in the way of speakers. Big thanks goes out to PWK and his speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 I've personally learned a lot from LeoK, on what he listen's for in an amplifier......... you Can always learn from forum members... well, most, anyways.............[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 and rhythmically correct, Procol Harum OoooHH , No .... not PRaT, again ... where you been hangin' out ..?? let me guess ..AA Amplifiers... do not have "Timing" ... they are passive devices small signal in > Larger Signal out ..... had to look up the PRaT thing and don't want to misuse the term here, but would venture rhythm might apply more towards converting the amplifier signal into mechanical energy through the speakers, where crossovers and room delay come to mind, e.g. why pairing a subwoofer with a single ended triode amp doesn't really work. . so.. what does musical mean to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted July 30, 2006 Share Posted July 30, 2006 System Synergy ...... is everything ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 I read that to mean finding synergy between musicality and accuracy. . some may find the article below interesting, Accuracy and Musicality -- A Psychological Approach Roy Harris The terms 'accurate' and 'musical' are frequently used to describe the sound of components and stereo systems. Accuracy (i.e., neutrality) denotes fidelity to the recording. Neutrality connotes an absence of an audible sonic signature. It is an ideal for most manufacturers whose goals are to design equipment that disappears allowing the sound of the recording to emerge intact. Music consists mainly of pitch, timbre and harmonics. Musicality denotes fidelity to the pitch, timbre and harmonics of instruments and imparts a pleasant and/or 'rounded' sound. Note, musicality does not include artifacts of sound such as speed, detail, dimensionality, transparency, air, etc. Can a stereo system be musical and accurate? It depends upon the recording. The goal of an accurate system is to recreate the sound of a recording without any errors. The goal of a musical system is to recreate the sound of instruments as accurately as possible. A neutral system will always be sonically correct (accurate) and occasionally musically correct. A musical system will always be sonically incorrect (inaccurate), i.e., euphonically colored and at times musically correct. The contrast between neutral and musical systems is best observed when poorly or well-recorded sources interact with these systems. When badly recorded LPs and CDs are heard on a neutral system, instruments sound unnatural. Such recordings played on a musical system should have more realistic instrumental textures, when even-order harmonic distortion or other (compensatory) coloration offset deficiencies in the recording. Other recordings, representing instruments in a more life-like manner, will retain that live character on a neutral system. Recordings that sound live on a neutral system may sound too tonally rich and blur differences in timbre when played on a musical system. In this example, instrumental timbres and harmonics may seem more accurate on a neutral system than on a musical system. The advantage of either system varies with the sound quality of recordings. Why would a musical system be preferred to a neutral one? A psychological explanation may provide an answer. Individuals vary as to the level(s) of a stimulus that is optimal. Those oriented to high levels of stimulation are stimulus seekers. Others who prefer low levels of a stimulus are stimulus avoiders. Stimulus seekers generally are attracted to very tasty food, pungent scents, saturated and bright colors and loud music. Stimulus avoiders opt for bland foods, music at low volume levels and relaxation rather than excitement. Consider the audio domain, i.e., the sense of sound. There are three factors that determine selection of stereo components: Accuracy, Musicality, and Personal Preference An accurate system reveals all the 'information' a recording can provide and would appeal to stimulus seekers. Stimulus avoiders would prefer a more blended and pleasant sound. Some will prefer attenuation in the treble region and a more distant perspective, i.e., a romantic and relaxed sound. Systems based upon personal taste might emphasize additive or subtractive coloration. Those favoring additive colorations would be stimulus seekers, while systems having subtractive colorations would appeal to stimulus avoiders. Idiosyncrasies of taste would explain a system based on exaggerated dynamics, a forward perspective or an analytical sound. Such a system would be favored by stimulus seekers. A tendency to favor muted dynamics, veiling and a very distant perspective would be typical of stimulus avoiders. In summary, both stimulus seekers and stimulus avoiders could assemble a stereo system, based upon personal taste, which is neither accurate nor musical. However, stimulus seekers prefer accuracy, while stimulus avoiders prefer musicality. As long as audio is viewed as an entertainment medium, it shouldn't matter what a system sounds like assuming the purchaser is satisfied with its sound. Dealers, reviewers and manufacturers, please consider the following: the doctrine that accuracy is the epitome of audio design has no logical or factual basis. Objective standards for evaluating the sonic merits of stereo equipment do not exist. Therefore, a design having some audible sonic characteristic(s) cannot be judged inferior to one that has no audible coloration. Systems and components sound different. Different is not always better. Reviewers typically state that 'amplifier A sounds better than amplifier B'. However, the basis for their opinions include personal taste, 'conventional wisdom', current fads or vogues, and other subjective factors. CONCLUSION The obsession with neutrality by manufacturers, reviewers and audiophiles has several consequences: 1. The sonic differential between tube and solid-state equipment is converging. 2. Solid state electronics sounds less dry and analytical. 3. Products that could be labeled as 'musical' are rare, with the exception of some single-ended (tube) amplifiers. 4. Stimulus seekers are more likely to be satisfied than stimulus avoiders with currently available equipment. 5. Software is more critical than hardware for achieving integrity of pitch, timbre and harmonics. The most significant issue in audio today is the recording. Microphone placement patterns are often inimical to the creation of a live sounding recording. Reflected sound that is part of an acoustical environment in concert halls and night clubs is missing on most recordings. In addition, the human ear and the microphone differ as transducers. As a consequence of the above-mentioned conditions, an LP or CD auditioned on a neutral system sounds significantly different from a listener's experience of live music. Some audiophiles become disgruntled and replace or upgrade their components when the cause of their displeasure is from poor recordings. There is no permanent solution to the problem of inadequate recordings. It may never be possible to create the perception that one is listening to live music on one's stereo system, even as recordings improve. It may be beneficial to alter the sound of the source, e.g., by using an equalizer or 'pleasant' sounding equipment to satisfy 'musicphiles', stimulus avoiders and others who are not enamored with the combination of today's high resolution systems and currently-available recordings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 I am not a big fan of Musicals. You can keep West Side Story and 42nd Street. Just not my cup of tea. I'm o.k. with musicals. It's opera that's not my cup of tea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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