Klipschorn Jubilee (Babies First Sounds)

[bodcaw boy]

Glad your back for a few days Roy.

I might be mixed up here but was it also John Post who wrote a paper about the importance of Time that you mentioned showing to PWK?

I would sure like to read it or any other suggested papers you might know of. so maybe when you have time you could give the Info of where I might find them.

Thanks

mike tn[]

hey mike tn,

mixed up? probably but what else is new...

john wrote his thesis on the analysis between exponential and tractix horns. using webster's equation, which assumes a plane wave entering the horn, the exponential is shown to be the best profile to use for maximum power transfer. but if the wave is curved in any way like spherical, then tractrix is shown to be the best profile to use for max power transfer or something like that. all i know is that when john gave paul a copy of his thesis, it clicked and we were on our merry way. .. how to get a copy? it is probably available at the university of texas at austin website? i think doc found it, i think.

as to time, he became convinced because of time stuff because he was good friends with dick heyser and paul was a proof reader and adviser when dick was gathering all his stuff to present.

are you mixed down now?

berryboy roy

[Al Klappenberger]

Doc,

Al....from your models it is blatantly obvious that your design would achieve a much worse transition in the Jubilee. I don't think much more needs to be said - if you don't see it I don't think you ever will.

My models lack the information that I requested and are therefore inclompete just as I stated earlier. All the basics are derived form analysis of the posted design. My filter is not a serious design, it's just an exercise. BTW: I have a computer modeling program for the sumation of two chanels including time delay through either channel taking absoulute phase of each filter into account that I have never posted plots from. What it has shown time and time again is the the transition band between two extreme-slope filters is very clean becasue it only needs to be phased at a single frequency. The sample design I just showed is NOT extreme-slope, it's just pole placed to illustrate how it can be done. If an equalizer is necessary for the channels to sum up, that can be added on. Actually, the equalizer should be designed first, then the frequency division filters later.

AL K.

[DrWho]

Yea, I think I found the article, but haven't sucked up to pay the $23 for it - not much I know, but that's the price of a CD, or 5 meals, etc etc... One of these days I'll be out of this prison they call college []

"A modeling and

measurement study of acoustic horns"

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1994PhDT........72P

http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=JASMAN000096000004002596000003&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes

I wonder if Gil might have a copy or if there is anything here at the UIUC library. I'm awful at looking up resources in real libraries - I'll need to go hunt down a bored librarian or something [] The first abstract mentions over 200 references though...one of these days when I've got more time on my hands I think I will dive in and see what kind of knots I can tie my mind into [H]

[mikebse2a3]

Glad your back for a few days Roy.

I might be mixed up here but was it also John Post who wrote a paper about the importance of Time that you mentioned showing to PWK?

I would sure like to read it or any other suggested papers you might know of. so maybe when you have time you could give the Info of where I might find them.

Thanks

mike tn[]

hey mike tn,

mixed up? probably but what else is new...

john wrote his thesis on the analysis between exponential and tractix horns. using webster's equation, which assumes a plane wave entering the horn, the exponential is shown to be the best profile to use for maximum power transfer. but if the wave is curved in any way like spherical, then tractrix is shown to be the best profile to use for max power transfer or something like that. all i know is that when john gave paul a copy of his thesis, it clicked and we were on our merry way. .. how to get a copy? it is probably available at the university of texas at austin website? i think doc found it, i think.

as to time, he became convinced because of time stuff because he was good friends with dick heyser and paul was a proof reader and adviser when dick was gathering all his stuff to present.

are you mixed down now?

berryboy roy

Thanks Roy for clearing that up for me!

Man I sure would have liked to have been in the Same Room with Paul W. Klipsch and Dick Heyser as they were discussing these subjects!

mike tn[]

[mikebse2a3]

As to my withholding information, name one thing I have withheld. There is only one, the design for the ES5800. That is simply becasue the average DIYer can't build it. It's too critical. All my other designs are downlaodable from my web site! Any other newer design not there are not there just becasue I am getting tired of all of it!

AL K.

Well Al that was one example I was thinking of and your reason makes sinse to me because very likely if someone did a poor build job most people might easily blame the design instead of the build. Its also the same as if Klipsch gave out the design for the Jubilee (Remember this also happened to PWK with the Khorn) to DIYers and again the danger was/is still that there would be people who would blame the design as flawed instead of the poor execution of the design. This to me is a very Justifiable Reason for Roy/Klipsch to limit the information that they reveal to us about any currently active design. Honestly to me Klipsch is one of the most free companies that I know of when it comes to their designs and it still amazes me what they share with us at times.

mike tn

[Al Klappenberger]

Mike,

I agree with your logic about withholding proprietery information. The problem here is that the information I need to do a network design is not proprietery. The construction of that phase plug, the curvature of the horn, the dimensions of the folding inside Jubilee horn, all that IS proprietery. The impedance the horn driver presents to the amp is information EVERYONE should be provided as well as the delay through the horn and the frequency response of the driver. How else is a customer to use his speaker when it is deliverd WITHOUT A CROSSVER! This is all I wanted plus a chance to work with a man who obvious know acoustics and horn design. Insted I got total resistance. This is somebody protecting his terf, nothing more! A good example is the source code to MicroSoft Windows XP. Microsoft provides interface data for every function and how to call it, but it will not release it's source code. The obvious flip side is LINUX which is open source. Which model do you think is best for everybody? I like the LINUX way best, mut the Microsoft way has proven very sucessfull.

As to the ES5800, The critical thing is the positioning of the inductors with respect to each other. I could provide a CNC made board that would force the inductors into the right postions in a kit, but the build is still very difficult becasue the coils are very close to each other. It's quite hard just to get the soldering iron between them! I am considering doing a CNC board for Dean to build them sometime in the future. So far, about 25 sets of ES5800 networks have been built. I think the layout has evolved far enough to allow that now.

BTW: I am through with my "attacks" on the passive network that was posted for the Jubilee. I beleive I have made my point even if I have ticked off a people because of my irritation with the attatued of a certain engineer. Remember that there is nothing in it for me to design a network for the Jubilee other than the fun of doing it. That speaker will never be manufactured for the home entertainment market. I have gone as far as I can go with networks for Klipsch speakers. I want to move on to more interesting things! My final recomendations for the fellows who have purchase the Jubilee is to stick with the digital / active crossover and digital delay equipment, but add an equalizer. This way you will be sure to have the correct frequency response in addition to the fine dispersion of that horn. DO NOT waste time with the posted passive network. It is not up to the quality of the speaker!

Al K.

[mikebse2a3]

Mike,

I agree with your logic about withholding proprietery information. The problem here is that the information I need to do a network design is not proprietery. The construction of that phase plug, the curvature of the horn, the dimensions of the folding inside Jubilee horn, all that IS proprietery. The impedance the horn driver presents to the amp is information EVERYONE should be provided as well as the delay through the horn and the frequency response of the driver. How else is a customer to use his speaker when it is deliverd WITHOUT A CROSSVER! This is all I wanted plus a chance to work with a man who obvious know acoustics and horn design. Insted I got total resistance. This is somebody protecting his terf, nothing more! A good example is the source code to MicroSoft Windows XP. Microsoft provides interface data for every function and how to call it, but it will not release it's source code. The obvious flip side is LINUX which is open source. Which model do you think is best for everybody? I like the LINUX way best, mut the Microsoft way has proven very sucessfull.

AL I would like for you to also realise that Roy has chosen his design of his passive crossover to get the Jubilee Response(Sound) as he wants it presented and heard by the public so why should he give information(help) that might allow others to design what they think would work best yet Roy/Klipsch could still get blamed for a design that doesn't sound correct. Do you really think they don't have a right to protect their design's sound as they saw fit to make it?

So yes they can only do so much to protect the (design's sound) they have chosen and anyone might buy the separate parts to make a Jubilee and add a passive crossover of their choice (or for that matter all one has to do if they are going active is alter the paramaters given them for the active crossover) and then the sound is not necessarily a sound that Roy/Klipsch would want to be associated with and I believe that is a reasonable position for Roy/Klipsch to take in not being a part of any altered designs that they can't control. As Designers/Manufacture (Roy/Klipsch) they have that right just the same as you(Designer/Manufactuer) do with your ES5800 Network!

As to the ES5800, The critical thing is the positioning of the inductors with respect to each other. I could provide a CNC made board that would force the inductors into the right postions in a kit, but the build is still very difficult becasue the coils are very close to each other. It's quite hard just to get the soldering iron between them! I am considering doing a CNC board for Dean to build them sometime in the future. So far, about 25 sets of ES5800 networks have been built. I think the layout has evolved far enough to allow that now.

BTW: I am through with my "attacks" on the passive network that was posted for the Jubilee. I beleive I have made my point even if I have ticked off a people because of my irritation with the attatued of a certain engineer. Remember that there is nothing in it for me to design a network for the Jubilee other than the fun of doing it. That speaker will never be manufactured for the home entertainment market. I have gone as far as I can go with networks for Klipsch speakers. I want to move on to more interesting things! My final recomendations for the fellows who have purchase the Jubilee is to stick with the digital / active crossover and digital delay equipment, but add an equalizer. This way you will be sure to have the correct frequency response in addition to the fine dispersion of that horn. DO NOT waste time with the posted passive network. It is not up to the quality of the speaker!

How can you be so sure AL that a Home Version of the Jubilee will never be built AL?

Did anyone ever think there would be a Cornwall III and a LaScalla II built?

Lets all Hope that the Jubilee, Cornwall III and LaScalla II are successfull because they are excellent speakers and from first hand experience at the Pilgrimage in Hope this Year the people at Klipsch that I met are still very dedicated to these designs and there success!

AL just so you know the EV Dx38 has the Programable EQs necessary for the Jubilee built into it as well as Digital units by DBX, Rane and Others.

I'm glad your ready to move on AL! Lifes Short and if your not enjoying the things your doing then why are we doing them?

Al K.

mike tn[]

[Al Klappenberger]

Mike,

The point you make about the particular "sound" that Roy and Klipsch wants sounds ligical, but I don't beleive it. Besides, the "sound" they want is usually determined by a panel of "golden-ears" and not in an anechoic chamber by an engeer. Remember too that this a theater speaker requiring a different course of thought than a speaker indtended for the home. I think it's simply a matter of somebody pertecting his own terf.

I have no inside track to say for certain that the Jubilee will never be built in a home version, but why would they? The Khorn is the Klipsch "signature" speaker and will always be so. The new Cornwall and LaScala are simply evolved versions of what they have always built. The new LaScala looks like a very nice marrage between the Belle and the LaScala and should replace both very nicely. The Jubilee for the home simply has no market. Now that home theater stuff dominates the market the trend is toward little boxes sitting all around the room. A big 2-channel super-dooper spearker system is just not what people want these days. Who is going to have 5 Jubilees sitting around the room in a 5.1 surround system! Bill Gates maybe!

I looked at the EV processor specks and didn't see an equalizer as part of its features. Does it come with a mike? Something is needed to determine the required correction. If it does have an equalizer built in you will need more equipment to set it up. I did see CD horn correction in it though. But: what information has been provided by Klipsch to set up the required equalization? Is it's high end flat or not? The passive network posted has 14 dB of loss at 550 Hz. If equalization is not needed why is it there? I can not explain it.

Al k.

[DrWho]

Are you reading everything Al, or just skimming through? All of your

questions have been answered many times already. My goodness, the

speaker is 14dB too hot at 500Hz because it was designed for constant

polars which introduces a natural roll off as frequency goes up.

Compensation for this natural behavior results in a flat frequency

response with flat power response (best of two worlds).

For what it's worth, the Asian and European markets are booming with

the big speaker industry - thus why Klipsch has moved the focus of the

heritage to those markets and has the reference for the american

market. I have no doubt that there are a bunch of crazy Asians that

would love to purchase the Jubilee for their home (in their eyes, the

bigger it is, the more bragging rights and bang for the buck they're

getting).

Those markets aside, there are still plenty of crazy forum members that

are doing lascalas all around in a HT...Jubilees all around wouldn't

really take up that much more space, nor would it be totally cost

prohibitive. There are plenty of Americans doing insane setups like

this all over the place - but yes, this market is much much smaller in

America.

The EV Dx38 has equalization all over the place. 5 master EQ's and then

5 for each individual channel (there are 4 channels total). At least I

think it's 5, I'd have to check again. Each can be one of many

different types with fully configurable parameters in addition to

crossovers and some other processing. And no, it doesn't come with a

mic - no serious user would ever consider such an approach either. No

additional equipment is necessary for setting it up because Roy has

already verified the necessary settings - he has then sent this file to

Mike and Richard where they can just drop in the settings with their

computer - or manually enter if they so desire. The cool thing about

using the computer is that you can see graphs of all the compensations

being implemented. So yes, you see a very similar frequency response to

the passive crossover.

And for the record, Klipsch runs everything through the anechoic

chamber. The only time the "golden-ears" come out is to decide on the

sonic variables that can't be optomized with any form of measurement (aka,

"voicing" of the speaker). Everybody knows that something that looks

good on paper doesn't necessarily correlate to real life - Klipsch

would be fools for not listening to their final products. Btw, where is

your anechoic chamber?

My how you so freely make assumptions...

[mikebse2a3]

Mike,

The point you make about the particular "sound" that Roy and Klipsch wants sounds ligical, but I don't beleive it. Besides, the "sound" they want is usually determined by a panel of "golden-ears" and not in an anechoic chamber by an engeer. Remember too that this a theater speaker requiring a different course of thought than a speaker indtended for the home. I think it's simply a matter of somebody pertecting his own terf.

Well AL lest see If I remember correctly "I believe the Klipschorn was Voiced by an Engineer by the name of Paul W. Klipsch when it was in it's early development" and I also believe the Klipschorn was used in Theaters as well as Homes.

Just because the Jubilee found its first market in Theaters doesn't change the fact that it is a well proven design that can work well in a Home Enviroment also. That the K402 Horn might not be as widely accepted in Home Use because of visual acceptance by some, the Fact is that it has Exceptional Performance that IMHO Works VERY!!! Well In My Home. Al it would be very easy to make a more widely accepted cosmetic version of the Jubilee with a Smaller Top Horn that will fit any location that a KHorn will and some that the KHorn has problems fitting.

I have no inside track to say for certain that the Jubilee will never be built in a home version, but why would they? The Khorn is the Klipsch "signature" speaker and will always be so. The new Cornwall and LaScala are simply evolved versions of what they have always built. The new LaScala looks like a very nice marrage between the Belle and the LaScala and should replace both very nicely. The Jubilee for the home simply has no market. Now that home theater stuff dominates the market the trend is toward little boxes sitting all around the room. A big 2-channel super-dooper spearker system is just not what people want these days. Who is going to have 5 Jubilees sitting around the room in a 5.1 surround system! Bill Gates maybe!

Well AL all I know is Paul W. Klipsch and Roy Delgado made the Jubilee Design at the end of PWK's lifetime and from all I can tell he viewed it as the Logical Progression of the Original Klipschorn and "Maybe" That Is Why He Called It "Klipschorn Jubilee"! as to honor its predecesser but to also acknowledge the fact that it was an important design improvement over the KHorn.

Al using your reasoning the KHorn has no market either!!! The fact is there are people using KHorns in Home Theaters and again I will repeat the Jubilee would fit in any of these situations just as easily if not better.

Look None of these speakers are for everyone! I remember reading an interview with PWK were he was asked what he thought the general public wanted in a speaker and basically his response was(I'm just recalling from the Top Of My Head Here so don't hold me to word for word) but basically he said: He didn't consider himself a part of the general public and That he Designed Speakers based on what he thought was important for sound reproduction and His Company Builds Them For The People (1% of the General Public That Feel The Same Way About Sound.

I looked at the EV processor specks and didn't see an equalizer as part of its features. Does it come with a mike? Something is needed to determine the required correction. If it does have an equalizer built in you will need more equipment to set it up. I did see CD horn correction in it though. But: what information has been provided by Klipsch to set up the required equalization? Is it's high end flat or not? The passive network posted has 14 dB of loss at 550 Hz. If equalization is not needed why is it there? I can not explain it.

Al k.

AL download the manual for the EV DX38 if you really want to know all that it can do.

I will tell you that it has (5) Programable Filters in each Input Channel and (4) Programbale Filters in Each Output Channel. They can be programed as PEQ, LOSLV(LowShelve), HISLV(High Shelve),LOPASS, and HIPASS with variable Frequency,Q,Gain,Slope as appropriate for any type filter chosen. The Output Channel EQs have all this plus ALLPASS type also.

There is no Mic and if you chose to go your own way without using Roy's Programing then yes you will need more equipment to do it properly and you had better realise that Roy has access and experience that very few if any of us have!

AL, Roy analyzed the Jubilee versions we bought and as a final test he listened. If you design for equipment and never listen at this stage of the game chances are you won't endup with what you want. AL you can analyze all you want but if you can't hear the final results then your on dangerouse ground from a design standpoint and if all you do is listen and don't have adequate test facilities/equipment then again your on dangerous ground as a designer!

mike tn

[Al Klappenberger]

Doc,

You are right about not reading carefully. I am somewhat dislexique. I switch letters and numbers around all the time. Like the word "network" for example. I swap the "or" to "ro" virtually every time I type it. I have to go back and check it every time. Even then I don't always see it. I tend to skim because reading is difficult for me. I will miss details. So.. If a correction is necessary, did Roy give details on how to set up that correction without benafit of a mike to get the high end response? The equalizer has to know what to correct for. In any case, even if you ignore the 14 dB thing I have made a major case against, there is a long list of other things wrong with that network! Look at the woofer filter. The exercise design I posted walks all over the posted design with half the parts and has the same insertion level and absolute phase! There is no equalization there. It's simply a design done by "giant thumb". I have seen this sort of thing too may times not to recognize it when I see it.

Mike,

About the manufacture of the Jubilee, yeah, maybe there is a market for it in Asia. I hadn't though of that. I know a lot of our classic equipment (Like Marantz 8B and 7C) were shipped to Japan a few years ago and sold there for big bucks. In fact, that is where my father Marantz stuff went. I don't think there will be much of a home market here for the Jubilee. What market there is here will be filled by the original Khorn. If you were Klipsch and was going to build a big speaker like the Jubilee for Asia wouldn't you out-source it and have it built in Asia? That seems to be the way things are done these days. Lower wages and no shipping costs. Chances are we wouldn't even see it over here.

Al K.

[bodcaw boy]

all,

well i have been praying about this and have asked others to pray for me about this (thanks deangee) and i want to offer an apology to all, including al, who have read my post on another thread (i am going to post an apology there as well). i am sorry that it degenerated to this but i don't respond well to intimidation and honestly i don't know too many people that do. i didn't mean for it to get like this. i really like audio and like people who like it too. and if i can help give an understanding to our speakers and learn myself from others in the process, why not? so please accept my apologies.

al and to you i say that i am sorry if you think i ignored you before. i honestly did not get your messages. but i will also tell you that i will not engage you in any discussion. all i have to do is look to your previous posts for reminders. sorry.

miketn, doc, deangee,

i will post some curves that will show how the lf and hf sections start, both freq and imp. then how the network looks like with the lf and hf sections as loads and then the end result. for the active, i will post the end result curve of the system so that miketn and coyotee-o, you can see what you are hearing.

have a blessed day,

berryboy roy

[seti]

Roy

Thanks for all your post on the Jubilee Threads There aren't too many forums were you get the oportunity to learn and ask questions from the engineers themselves. I hope you continue to post here.

Thanks again,

Ian/Seti

[mikebse2a3]

all,

well i have been praying about this and have asked others to pray for me about this (thanks deangee) and i want to offer an apology to all, including al, who have read my post on another thread (i am going to post an apology there as well). i am sorry that it degenerated to this but i don't respond well to intimidation and honestly i don't know too many people that do. i didn't mean for it to get like this. i really like audio and like people who like it too. and if i can help give an understanding to our speakers and learn myself from others in the process, why not? so please accept my apologies.

al and to you i say that i am sorry if you think i ignored you before. i honestly did not get your messages. but i will also tell you that i will not engage you in any discussion. all i have to do is look to your previous posts for reminders. sorry.

miketn, doc, deangee,

i will post some curves that will show how the lf and hf sections start, both freq and imp. then how the network looks like with the lf and hf sections as loads and then the end result. for the active, i will post the end result curve of the system so that miketn and coyotee-o, you can see what you are hearing.

have a blessed day,

berryboy roy

Roy

No apologies needed on my account and anything you need to do is OK with me! As you know I like learning and seeing the test info but Roy all I really need is setting in my Room playing (Eric Clapton (Unplugged) as I write this).[]

I like you feel sad about all this occuring and it shouldn't have had to be like this but everything will be OK, everybody will be OK and My Jubilees Will Play Beautifull Music And Place Many Smiles On My Face!!![][][]

Roy I know this hasn't been easy but the Jubilee, PWK, And Both Of Yours Hard Work Is Worth It! So please hang in there with us.

mike tn[]

[Al Klappenberger]

Roy,

I accept your word that you didn't get my early messages. I took the wrong route. I should have gone directy to your email address which was given to me. I assumed that the forum "private message" route would be more appropriate. I also apologize for my direct attacks on your design and on you, but a I fealt ignored and insulted, so I reacted accordingly. I still beileve that you and I working together would further the state of the art in loudspeaker performace. You are the horn and driver expert and I am the filter man. Nobody knows everything about everything. Again I will make the offer to work with you on an extreme-slope design for the Jubilee. I make no claims on the finished result as all I want is the fun of doing it. There is nothing in it for me to retain any rights to the design. I am not in the business of supplying networks for new products. I have just been making networks for older speakers. If the Jubilee ever did get into production there is no way I could ever keep up with demand anyhow!

Al K.

[mikebse2a3]

Roy,

I accept your word that you didn't get my early messages. I took the wrong route. I should have gone directy to your email address which was given to me. I assumed that the forum "private message" route would be more appropriate. I also apologize for my direct attacks on your design and on you, but a I fealt ignored and insulted, so I reacted accordingly. I still beileve that you and I working together would further the state of the art in loudspeaker performace. You are the horn and driver expert and I am the filter man. Nobody knows everything about everything. Again I will make the offer to work with you on an extreme-slope design for the Jubilee. I make no claims on the finished result as all I want is the fun of doing it. There is nothing in it for me to retain any rights to the design. I am not in the business of supplying networks for new products. I have just been making networks for older speakers. If the Jubilee ever did get into production there is no way I could ever keep up with demand anyhow!

Al K.

[:^)][]

[Coytee]

Mike, I have an idea...

Maybe you & I can send the Jubilees BACK to Klipsch for a refund. By undoing the transactions, maybe we can undo all this "stuff" that's gone on???

You send yours first...

[]

[oldbuckster]

Mike, I have an idea...

Maybe you & I can send the Jubilees BACK to Klipsch for a refund. By undoing the transactions, maybe we can undo all this "stuff" that's gone on???

You send yours first...

[]

Ship to their Upstate New York Terminal............I'll handle everything for you guys.............Paper work, and such............No Charge............

[DrWho]

Hey Mike, I finally entered that data into the RACE program...way cool.

One thing that was pissing me off was the effects of the delay button

being on and off in the filter sections...until I got around to

entering the phsyical position of the drivers in the "Placement"

configuration window. Talk about way cool! I'm not sure if my numbers

are perfectly accurate, but it's probably close. I now see what you're

talking about in regards to the position of the head - Roy optomized

the design on-axis with the tweeter, but in a typical home you might be

sitting a bit lower. However, I've played with moving the head around and you might see around a 1dB difference...nothing to worry too much about.

Since Roy mentioned he would provide these graphs, I figured I'd share some screenshots.

What you see here is the raw frequency response of the crossover of the

system. The first plot shows the steady state frequency response of the

active crossover ignoring the physical seperation of the drivers (so

the time-delay implemented will result in phase issues in the crossover

region, which is the reason for the drop-out at 680Hz). The second plot

shows the steady state frequency response of the active crossover

taking into account the physical position of the drivers - now the time

delay isn't introducing phase issues (in the steady state). So the

second response more closely resembles the negative of the system

frequency response.

Everything looks pretty normal to me except the compensation at 4kHz. Looking at the polars this is the region

where it's coming close to a planar wave, or as Roy puts it the wave

is collapsing on itself (not sure what exactly collapsing means). It

also seems that a lot of these compression drivers have a slightly rising

response in the middle of their bandwidth. And if I remember correctly

the initial flare rates are a bit tighter for the HF extension while

the second half is a bit wider for the lower frequencies (where the

high frequencies aren't really seeing the side walls anymore). All that

to say there is probably a lot going on in that region. The way I see

it, as long as it's not a resonance related issue I don't think the

attenuation is much of a concern. No design is perfect and I think Roy

is being a bit tweaky with the EQ [] But hey, if the processing is

there, why not use it? []

EDIT - slight compensation (lowshelf instead of PEQ).

[ZAKO]

Al I can see the legal problems in you joining in on the crossovers. Even volinteering your services free. can get stickey later. Your very talented & hope this early attemped will not dampen your enthusiasm.