Klipschorn Jubilee (Babies First Sounds)

[mikebse2a3]

and how about a hornloaded sub....hmmmmm.............

The bar is high... have you heard these AvantGarde subs?

I think you should go for it!

Widget

Seems to me PWK did experiments with his Klipschorns by placing them side by side in the middle of the room and that was outperformed by a single Klipschorn in the corner.

I wonder if just Two of those Low Frequency Horns in each corner wouldn't outperform six stacked together like that in the middle of the front wall.

Does make for a Pretty Picture Though!

mike tn[]

[bodcaw boy]

Hey Roy!

First! Glad your back Roy and I want to thank you and everyone in Hope who worked on and signed off on the Certificate for the Jubilees (Special Thanks To HORN GUY!!!) for me and for the CD of all the Pictures of the Jubilees being made with the pictures of the people who worked on them.[]

Thanks so much for the Test Results (especially of the Jubilee with the EV Dx38 Results).

Roy if you get a chance could you e-mail me a higher resolution copy of the Jubilee/EV Dx 38 graphs so that I can make a good copy of them?

mike tn[]

hey miketn

no problemo. i am glad you lilke the stuff we sent. send me an email at work and i will send the graph.

berryboy roy

[oldbuckster]

those are avantegarde speakers oldbuckster. That set will cost you min 15000 each for those subhorns (that one has 6) and 20000 each three way horn.

Hence 100000 dollars~!

R U SERIOUS.......$100,000. for speakers.....Think Not.......they are impressive to say the least.........

[seti]

the big question is do they sound $100000 good ?

when you look at systems priced like that you could get 2 jubilee bass bins veneered and get a horn custom made like the one pwk is pictured with for a fraction of that price.

[IB Slammin]

the big question is do they sound $100000 good ? when you look at systems priced like that you could get 2 jubilee bass bins veneered and get a horn custom made like the one pwk is pictured with for a fraction of that price.

Ian,

I remember back in the early 70's when I bought a pair of walnut Khorns for $1020.00 people ask, "is any speaker worth that much money"? They were.

How are the Allens coming along?

Regards,

Terry

[seti]

the big question is do they sound $100000 good ? when you look at systems priced like that you could get 2 jubilee bass bins veneered and get a horn custom made like the one pwk is pictured with for a fraction of that price.

Ian,

I remember back in the early 70's when I bought a pair of walnut Khorns for $1020.00 people ask, "is any speaker worth that much money"?       They were.  

How are the Allens coming along?

Regards,

Terry

 

Khorns are on my list : )

The allens should be landing this month. I am excited.

I am on the road till wednesday. I am leaving Flagstaff this am great town but we only had a day to see grand canyon and the town. I hope to make it to Roswell tonight gonna catch me some space aliens.

[jwc]

I am quite surprised that those images that Roy uploaded didn't create more chatter.

I was looking at the LF impedance curve. Now I know the sticker on the back of the bass bin says 8 ohms. However, looks to me to be below 5 ohms for those frequencies that the jubilee will be playing.

Any comments on this. I assume the drivers are wired in parallel?

Thanks

jc

[DrWho]

Well it looks pretty normal for two 8 ohm drivers wired in parallel. I think they list as 8 ohms nominal because of all the large impedance peaks - if you take the average over the bandwidth you might be closer to 8 ohms than 4 ohms. I know there is some discrepancy on how to calculate nominal loads.

The nominal load is just a number that doesn't have much real meaning - it's meant only for rough calculations. If the 8ohm number provides for better approximation then I suppose that's the number that should be there.

[jwc]

Yes Mike I see the impedance swings and I understand what you are saying. However, I was under the impression that the actual impedance at the point of crossover is what is valuable for calculating filters. Is this not so?

[DrWho]

Ya, you should never use the nominal load for designing

crossovers...unless it's a last minute speaker repair type thing right

before a show or something like that.

You really need to take into account the impedance throughout the

entire crossover region when designing passives. And even then you'll

find yourself fudging numbers to compensate for non-linear real life

variables. At least that's my understanding of it so far.

You planning on designing your own passives or something?

[jwc]

This was just out of curiousity. I was also just inquiring about low pass only filter. Just curious on thought process as I am gonna take a stab at another double bass bin....horn loaded this time. I therefore will have to come up with another makeshift network. I don't want to hijack the thread by this point.

Yes, the nominal impedance isn't something I would use for the calculation...that is why I am asking about that curve posted. From a calculation standpoint for a simple low pass filter.....I am thinking in this scenario a much lower impedance than 8 ohms if say crossover the low end between 400-600Hz.

[PrestonTom]

RE: the nominal impedance of a speaker

I checked in Tremaines's "Audio Cyclopedia", which is a kick to read.

Impedance as a function of frequency will have three features.

First (at 0Hz), the impedance will be a small number and reflect the DC resistance of the voice coil winding.

Second at a higher frequency (a couple or few hundred Hz) the impedance wil reach a local maximum (resonance) and reflects the free air resonant impedance, it will then drop again.

Third, it will again increase due to the inductive reactance of the voice coil winding.

It is the minimum impedance (the drop after #2 and before the rise of #3) that is the nominal impedance (according to an EIA standard, I assume it is still current?)

-Tom

[DrWho]

When was your encyclopedia written? If I remember correctly, nominal impedance was being redefined in the late 80's, early 90's???- and I believe PWK was inolved with this as well. I remember Jim Hunter talking about it. The description you provide wouldn't exactly apply to the impedance of the complex horn system that has many impedance rises and dips. I think the new way involves some crazy integrals and stuff.

[PrestonTom]

Good point. Tremaine's book is at least 20 years old.

Certainly there are a number of other things involved, e.g., the impedance when a crossover network (with its own electrical resonances) is part of the system.

Still, Tremaine's "Audio Cyclopedia" is fun to read. You see them at used book stores every once in awhile

-Tom

[Deang]

First (at 0Hz), the impedance will be a small number and reflect the DC resistance of the voice coil winding.

Second at a higher frequency (a couple or few hundred Hz) the impedance wil reach a local maximum (resonance) and reflects the free air resonant impedance, it will then drop again.

Third, it will again increase due to the inductive reactance of the voice coil winding.

It is the minimum impedance (the drop after #2 and before the rise of #3) that is the nominal impedance (according to an EIA standard, I assume it is still current?)

The first three statements are true, the last statement sounds like a pretty good way of looking at it.

JC, you might want to start reading about Zobels.

[jwc]

Thanks Dean. When I typically would look at the published info on a woofer, I would look at the "drop after #2" as you say. This is what I did here.

You know I haven't read about Zobels in awhile as it seems here that the concept gets a bad rap. I will glance back at the info.

I don't want to highjack this thread with this impedance stuff. I'll lay off the idea for now.

[jwc]

A couple of Georgia boys visited Richard Albright (Coytee) today. It was a fabulous trip and I cant thank Richard enough for inviting us to his house to hear his setup. He was nothing but a great host and basically let us take control of his stereo for 6 hours.

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Richard lives in a quiet wooded place in western Tennesee. His house is very well decorated. Upon entering the back door, to the left is a large pair of speakers.which would be JUBILEES.

They sit in a room that I would guess would be 16 x 18. The jubs sat on the shorter wall. He has them in the corners but tuned slightly to point to the listening position. Much like you would do a la scala. Between the jubs is a mass of electronics. If you have been following his quest, then you are probably familiar with the equipment.

It is a two way system with an active crossover at 24dB. The top was pushed with the MCIntosh MC2102. This is MACS latest larger tube amp. The LF section was pushed by a large DBX amp. The preamp was a Peach and the tape loop was on for some of the time which ran a dbx processor and a dbx equalizer. He had a Sony SACD player and a Sony DVD player. I brought my AH! CD Player.

He had his system down to a very minimal hum or hiss. Nice.

We played a variety of music. Mine was Im sure less popular but I had some good recordings. The first impression is that the bass bins are fabulous. They really come right at you and you feel it. They remind me of a La Scala in which the bass is coming right at you but much lower in HZ. For those at Hope, YES THAT BASS YOU HEARD CAN BE REPRODUCED IN THE HOME. This was my main quest on this trip. How well does that bass sound in the home? There wasnt a bad place in the room.

He has it balanced. He has the active crossover set to Roys recommendations. I havent messed with active XOs before and have very little knowledge of them. It seems many have asked about time delay and how the active will allow you to correct for the potential problem in the jubilee setup. Well, Richard toggled between time delay on and off and I couldnt tell a difference.

The system is very accurate. You could turn it up really loud and no fatigue. Now Richard can turn them up real loud and be able to stay in the room. These things chase me out quickly. The house rattles easily.especially his fireplace. He will eventually get them in the basement. This will probably make them more amazing.

Now mark (Mark1101) was very impressed. I will let him chime in at some time to give his comments.

I have always made the statement that my ears may not be the best in the world but I guess there are things I like and dislike.whether truly bad or good.

It is really a bummer that Klipsch doesnt make a home version of these. I know it probably will never be a money maker. The Top Horn is a big sucker and it will be obtrusive to most. However, I didnt find it to be the part that I liked the most. It was those bass binsIf you are in the bass horn camp..you would die do have these if you had the chance to audition them. Im sure there are several ways you could do the top. I would like to see the option of a passive XO mature. I would prefer a one amp option to run these in the home. Heck you need very little power.

It is tough to say thisIf you love the Klipschornyou may find there is something you like even better.

More on this laterit is late and Im going to bed.

jc

[Deang]

Nice write up JC, thanks. So, the bottom half delivered, and I don't suppose anyone here is surprised by that. I'm thinking that though balanced out nicely and very clean, you may have found the top just a bit too foward and aggressive in nature. Material rich in vocals and well recorded small scale stuff probably sounds nothing short of astonishing, while highly compressed busy recordings probably made you want to bury your head into the couch.

[Parrot]

Yes, good write-up. I was particularly interested in the time delay issue, so your input on that was welcome:

It seems many have asked about time delay and how the active will allow you to correct for the potential problem in the jubilee setup. Well, Richard toggled between time delay on and off and I couldnt tell a difference.

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The Top Horn is a big sucker and it will be obtrusive to most.

I think obtrusive to all who aren't blind would be fair []

[jwc]

Thanks guys.

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I got some sleep and already been on the phone this a.m. with a forum member who anxiously awaited hearing my experience.

Now let me start by saying that the entire speaker and system setup was truly AMAZING. It took Mark and I about 30 minutes to 1 hour to settle down. Keep this in mind as I make more comments as I am picking small things apart with my experience. If at anytime you think that I am insulting or putting down Richards setup, please reread that underlined statement.

The below comments will reflect his system w/o the dbx range expander and the dbx EQ. Just the sources, Peach, EV, Two amps and the Jub System.

CD Players:

First of all, I was impressed with my AH! Cdplayer. I didnt take it there for the purpose of going hey I got a tube CD player and you should get one. I did it so that more ears could hear it and get there opinions. I also wanted to hear it on another system. Mark and Richard can give their own comments. I definitely think this CD player is one heck of a bargain. Cost me $1295 with all the upgrades. I have compared it to my McIntosh CD/DVD player over the last 2 weeks and the AH! Clearly is the winner with playing standard CD format. My McIntosh costs over 3X as much. I thought the AH! Sounded better than Richards Sony CD players as well. Again..just my thoughts. Of course the sound no matter what the source was great!

Active Network:

Now again I have no experience with this stuff. I think that EV XO makes the system very accurate. There is also an enormous amount of flexibility. I didnt feel there was any harshness or too bright. I will say that I wasnt able to recognize any warmth or lushness coming out of the speakers. Again, he has the big MAC 2102 tube amp pushing the top end and has a Peach for the Preamp. I also found no familiarity with the Klipsch Heritage sound. This isnt a bad thing at all. It should stay in a class of its own. Whatever class you want to call itits a good one.

2- way:

Mark seemed very impressed with the two way. This is a different sound that may take some getting use to for some. I would say that his top horn driver and top horn does a great job of getting out to the high frequencies. I would like to hear what they sound like further back than the 10 I was standing from them. I have gotten use to hearing a separate tweeter. This may be considered a learned expectation.

Random:

It didnt matter where in the room you stood, the bass was the same. I would extend to say that the bass bin might not be as room depended as the top horns. At Hope the listening room for the one Jub wasnt really that large and Richards room was smaller with two of them. The bass heard at Richards was very similar to what was heard at hope. I happy with this. The 402 horn is great too but I bet I would appreciate it more if I was about 20 back. I can remember after the Hope trip that someone commented on how they thought the driver was playing right at them or something like that. I kinda get that feeling too. Just imagine a Top horn with a mouth that is 36w x 20h and you are only a few feet away from it. I would bet that you cant hear the advantage of such a massive top horn from a few feet away.

I will probably think of some other things to say later. For now I have to again thank Richard for being such a great host. Mark and I loved that whole afternoon. Congrats to Roy and PWK. That bass horn is truly amazing.

jc