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Klipschorn Jubilee (Babies First Sounds)


mikebse2a3

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Hey Roy!

I've got a question for you and would be very interested in your thoughts/reasons about this!

I was playing with the ETF Test Program for a short time today and noticed that you intentionally didn't bring the drivers into perfect time alignment. I assume you decided to do this after taking into account the individual Horn's Frequency Responses and Phase Responses and choose a Time Difference that provided the best Crossover "Transition Blend" Between Drivers.

mike tn[:)]

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DeanG.....Phenolic has nothing to do with The Heritage designs.....But they did play a part . Jubilee will be linked to the heritage line only through Pauls direct participation In its design with Delgato....passing into the new century. I hope Delgato can do what Paul Klipsch did with his original child (Khorn) ....Taking the Juble out to the public one at a time, proving its worth, Hoping the new child can walk on its own. .....The first ones are now out there....lets hope others will follow...thats up to you....what the small group here are doing, Reminds me of those of us 60 yrs ago were doing in getting the Khorn on its feet......Im too old now to start all over again, & will only participate in watching this grandchild (Jubilee) Waddle into adulthood....Its up to the young members on this Forum To support its growth. It will be your momentom, Not mine. create your new Heritage & good luck.

Well I think I did my part, even though I did not buy heritage, I did buy the flagship Reference Series speakers, and in the future I will definitely upgrade to add more speakers. I may even bump up to Heritage.

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All I have to do is ask? I don't get it...what's the trick? [*-)]

I tried to be sneaky and download some EASE data, but apparently they don't have that info on the site anymore? I swear I remember seeing it on most of the pro stuff? Either way, I know they've gotta have some EASE data tucked away somewhere because nobody would consider their products without it. Everything has gotta look perty in them coverage charts when a theatre is being designed. Though I did find a nominal rating for the 3-way Jubilee tucked away in the literature. 90x60 +-20 degrees. So worst case scenario you're talking 70x40 @19kHz on the 3-way and probably something like 3x2 at 18kHz for the 2-way. [6][:P]

Well here goes...

Kind sir, could I trouble you for the polar data on the Jubilee? [:P][:D]

why young doctor emeritus whoinstance,

you may partake of said data.

doc,

email me at work and i will find the polar data and send. roy.delgado@klipsch.com

berryboy roy

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Roy, I think I must live near a black hole -- PMs, emails, and phone calls get sucked in and vanish. If you get a chance to call during the day today, use 1.937.255.6702 -- I'll be at work today until 4 (EST).

What is 'polar' response exactly -- what the FR looks like with the speaker sitting in a corner at the North Pole?:)

hey deangee,

just email me at work and i will get your emails. roy.delgado@klipsch.com please let me know when you are sending one as we do have spam stuff and i want to make sure that your's stuff gets through.

polar response is off axis data 360 degree around at different freqs. we use this to see how consistent the coverage pattern is and what is happening around the speaker past the -6 db down point. or if you like, north pole?? come on its the south pole, i thought everyone knew that. :)

berryboy roy

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Hey Roy!

I've got a question for you and would be very interested in your thoughts/reasons about this!

I was playing with the ETF Test Program for a short time today and noticed that you intentionally didn't bring the drivers into perfect time alignment. I assume you decided to do this after taking into account the individual Horn's Frequency Responses and Phase Responses and choose a Time Difference that provided the best Crossover "Transition Blend" Between Drivers.

mike tn[:)]

miketn,

interesting question and i was wondering if you were going to stumble on to this. when i started to get time of flight info for all our cinema systems, i wanted to make sure that the data we gave out for crossover freq, delays, gain, etc, would indeed give the theater curve that would require very little adjustement out in the field. so i decided to verify everything in our chamber. i entered the time of flight (or impulse time or time of energy arrival or whatever) and the other info into the ev and noticed that the lf and mf were not adding up correctly. in fact, there was interference. i wondered why that was the case since i had my time of arrival for each section. i double and triple checked that number but still we had amplitude interference. then i stumbled upon something. the electronic filters have phase sift, the drivers have phase shift, the horns phase shift and i am sure that some kid in the dominian republic is adding some sort of phase shift. what i ended up with was that that also had to be compensated for and that stuff like croossover rolloff (12 db per octave or 24 db per octave) changed what that value was. so within +/- one half the time period of the crossover frequency, you can adjust the time delay in order to get max amplitude and have very little interference. that is why i am so glad, we have a chamber; that allows me to instantly change the delay value and see what happens.

having the time of flight gets you within the right time period of the crossover freq. knowing that other phase shifts are occuring but not knowing there value is why the time delay is adjusted until max amplitude is achieved. this lowers interference possibilities but puts the sections together so that the acoustic wave exits both sources correctly.

hope that my feeble attempt to explain this makes sense.

berryboy roy

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DeanG .....Remember we all started out with the bass bin. No two tops were alike...These were mono days....Your ears saw only what they heard as you played any performence. Some useing the Bob Smith DSH top horn got a wider high frequency dispersion....Delgato has stated there is another smaller horn you can use on top....Crossing at 800hz opens up alot of possibilities. The JBL 2397 Smith horn will work as well.....But I would like to hear the others as well. This could be the shot in the arm to open up the Jubilee to every one who can afford the bottom unit. Delgato can be the new beacon in guiding every one through it. BUT at some point Like PAUL the over all sonic model will be firmed up...Buy then enough Juble bass bins will be out there to upgrade to the Klipsch model Paul & Delgato origionally heard together. Its now your future....The generosity at the Klipsh Co. Has been extended....Grab that oppertunity by the horns. I did years ago.....60yrs later I,m sitting on 4 of them..

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Hey Roy!

I've got a question for you and would be very interested in your thoughts/reasons about this!

I was playing with the ETF Test Program for a short time today and noticed that you intentionally didn't bring the drivers into perfect time alignment. I assume you decided to do this after taking into account the individual Horn's Frequency Responses and Phase Responses and choose a Time Difference that provided the best Crossover "Transition Blend" Between Drivers.

mike tn[:)]

miketn,

interesting question and i was wondering if you were going to stumble on to this. when i started to get time of flight info for all our cinema systems, i wanted to make sure that the data we gave out for crossover freq, delays, gain, etc, would indeed give the theater curve that would require very little adjustement out in the field. so i decided to verify everything in our chamber. i entered the time of flight (or impulse time or time of energy arrival or whatever) and the other info into the ev and noticed that the lf and mf were not adding up correctly. in fact, there was interference. i wondered why that was the case since i had my time of arrival for each section. i double and triple checked that number but still we had amplitude interference. then i stumbled upon something. the electronic filters have phase sift, the drivers have phase shift, the horns phase shift and i am sure that some kid in the dominian republic is adding some sort of phase shift. what i ended up with was that that also had to be compensated for and that stuff like croossover rolloff (12 db per octave or 24 db per octave) changed what that value was. so within +/- one half the time period of the crossover frequency, you can adjust the time delay in order to get max amplitude and have very little interference. that is why i am so glad, we have a chamber; that allows me to instantly change the delay value and see what happens.

having the time of flight gets you within the right time period of the crossover freq. knowing that other phase shifts are occuring but not knowing there value is why the time delay is adjusted until max amplitude is achieved. this lowers interference possibilities but puts the sections together so that the acoustic wave exits both sources correctly.

hope that my feeble attempt to explain this makes sense.

berryboy roy

Thanks Roy!

I believe I understand your point pretty well. So basically your making the best of an imperfect world and Time is another Variable at your disposal to make the best response through the overlap band of the two horns and just not at the exact crossover frequency.

So my next question 'Good Teacher" Roy!, At what distance and height was your Measurement Mic so that I can reproduce some of what you saw with the ETF Program?

mike tn[:D]

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Is it possible to introduce independant phase adjustments on this

crossover? I'm not exactly sure how normal phase knobs work so don't

know if they by nature introduce time-delays of their own???

One thing that strikes me as rather interesting is that Roy is trying

to maximize the efficiency of the system through the crossover region -

I done learned in Hope that Klipsch puts efficiency as #1 on their

priority list. And then I was thinking about it a little more,

wondering about the compromises involved (yes, my head hurts....). By

absolutely maximizing the efficiency of the sysem over the crossover

region you also minimize the amount of overlap between drivers while

maintaining a flat frequency response. Minimizing overlap is a good

thing because it reduces the magnitude of timing issues in the vertical

plane (the drivers are physically spread out so there is a

corresponding delay and phase shift).

And assuming that line of reasoning is somewhat accurate, I suppose it

would make sense that pattern control is needed so low for the HF

driver (something I've been wondering about). The acoustical centers of

the two sections are rather far apart....too far for a "clean" 1kHz

crossover (isn't the general rule of thumb to be within a 1/4

wavelength?). I'm pretty sure the bass bin is rather narrow in the

vertical so a narrow vertical for the tweeter would be following

general line array principles - the less overlap, the less

comb-filtering off-axis (again only an issue in the vertical plane).

I know it's all speculation, but I find it interesting how conceptually

a lot of other things start to fall in place when you try to optimize

efficiency. I always hear about how PWK was always talking about

efficiency all the time and I think I'm beginning to see why. I don't

think it's just about the raw output and dynamic capability of the

system (thought that is certainly a great attribute).

Enough rambling. And hopefully if I'm way off base Roy will put me back

in line with a Herring in the traditional Monty Python style [;)]

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One thing that strikes me as rather interesting is that Roy is trying

to maximize the efficiency of the system through the crossover region -

I done learned in Hope that Klipsch puts efficiency as #1 on their

priority list.

I took Roy's comment to mean "maximizing the amplitude" is a

reduction in cancellation... I don't think the goal is a peak at the

crossover, rather the avoidance of a null that will occur if the

drivers are partially or wholly out of phase. (Or time shifted enough

to cause a phase shift.)

Widget

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Sure Maron, I agree with that -- I was only thinking in terms of the sonic signature.

When I do Jubilees, I will only be able to do the bottom half of them. There's no way my room can support the top section.

In 2004 we heard two different hf horns and I could not discern that big of a difference. I think the smaller horn pictured with PWK would be more than adequate or the smaller horn. Of course if money were no object it would be nice to have a custom made horn or a martinelli wood horn.

post-15544-13819307865886_thumb.jpg

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All I have to do is ask? I don't get it...what's the trick? [*-)]

I tried to be sneaky and download some EASE data, but apparently they don't have that info on the site anymore? I swear I remember seeing it on most of the pro stuff? Either way, I know they've gotta have some EASE data tucked away somewhere because nobody would consider their products without it. Everything has gotta look perty in them coverage charts when a theatre is being designed. Though I did find a nominal rating for the 3-way Jubilee tucked away in the literature. 90x60 +-20 degrees. So worst case scenario you're talking 70x40 @19kHz on the 3-way and probably something like 3x2 at 18kHz for the 2-way. [6][:P]

Well here goes...

Kind sir, could I trouble you for the polar data on the Jubilee? [:P][:D]

hey doc,

i emailed you and coyotee-o and miketn the polar data. look it over and see what you guys think.

berryboy roy

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