Looking into getting a sub here in Canada. Advice wanted!

[Swerv]

Hi all,

I'm looking at getting a sub in the near future - I'm assembling a sub shortlist at the moment of a few choices I would like to audition. Please mention If you have recomendations or opinions on any of these or one I have overlooked.

I'm looking for something to compliment my Boston CR67 bookshelves, my main concern is this sub has to be very musical, and still have enough oomph for those low freq , intense scenes in HT content (cave troll in LOTR1, ice crystals in Titan A.E.,depth charges in u-571 etc..) Let me just say i have the 5.1 ultra set for pc, and was impressed with what the sub did for the money. I'm thinking 10-15 inches, Decent to hefty headroom and output, reasonable low freq response at least to 23-24hz if it can do 20 with some room eq'ing then all the better. the main concern here being it has to keep up in music with bostons. (which extend to about 60 - 65hz ) I now want to step more into the realm of a real subwoofer though. the time for PEECEE sound is over!

(not in any order- also size is not an issue,my price cap is around 1800$ canadian(maybe a little more if its something special)

1. Paradigm Seismic 10/12 - looks very pricey, but I have heard its quite the sub and delivers deep bass performance with authority - unfortunately ive been unable to find a paradigm dealer in vancouver that has these to audition

2. Klipsch RSW 10/12d - Pricey here in canada, but loved for their musical punch and quick dyamics. I have heard the RSW 10 at a local london drugs and was not overly impressed for the money. I'm sure the setup was less than ideal... I wish there was another sub they had to compare it with, but all they had was the RSW-10d, which wasn't in an ideal position the RW-12 to 8, and some Jamo 10inch sub. I liked the RW12 sounded like it had more bottom end at lower volumes, perhaps it was calibrated better than the RSW. If the 12 is really more suited for my tastes I will make an effort to audition one properly. Maybe someone can explain to me what sort of performance i can expect out of the 12, although its quite expensive here in canada.

3.Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus ( cheaper but apparently getting some good reviews on the net from people) Don't know much about this one or where i could listen to it.

4. SVS PB12-plus or similar (do they ship to canada yet? is it worth the hassle?) I would be inclined to look at some of their subs if its still a good bang for buck here up north.

5.Infinity SW-12 (not the most potent or deep sounding but also a fairbit cheaper, has onboard bass managment thats adaptive to rooms, and is comparable to the outlaw according to top nousain's article)

*** I've also been recomended to look into the av123 X series,the cambridge Newton Series P1000, the paradigm servo 15 or PDR series, velodyne SPL-R series (1200or 1500) etc.. I don't know very much about these subs... ***

I would like to hear some other recomendations not mentioned as well. So if anyone can enlighten me as to which type of sub would best suit my tastes, and needs for my budget, ill go out an audition what I can.

Thanks in advance!

-Ed

[CECAA850]

I believe HSU has some dealers in Canada. You definitely want to check them out.

[Paul]

Do you have any MK dealers down the road,If so look at a MX350,This should work good for you and you will be impressed.Oh sorry the price,you should be able to pick one up in your area for around 1800

http://www.amsound2.com/browseproducts/M-K-MX350-MK-II.html

Contact tom he will give you a dealer in your area.RALEX ACOUSTICS
Coquitlam, British Columbia
tom@aralex.com
www.aralex.com

[gaspr]

You might want to check out the offerings over at

http://www.axiomaudio.com

Some great products and made in Canada too. I beleive they have some sort of factory outlet store as well.

Garth

[darkside]

I would recommend taking a look at Earthquake SuperNovas, specifically

the MKV-12 for your price, though I'm not sure availability in Canada.

http://www.earthquakesound.com/supernova15.htm

[oldenough]

Here you go Swerv, plus it's here in Canada. One awesome sub, complete with controller. i love mine. John

oops forgot the link[]

[oldenough]

Here you go Swerv, plus it's here in Canada. One awesome sub, complete with controller. i love mine. John http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=330027420241&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=014

[boomer9911]

not mentioned....Velodyne, available North across the border, for home grown, Paradigm has my vote....

[Swerv]

Hey all, thanks for the suggestions...

I have heard good things about the servo15 but it is out of my budget here and I'am not interested in a sub with no warranty.

At the moment it is looking like :

Velodyne SPL-1000R or SPL-1200R (most likely the 12)

Klipsch RSW10d

HSU VTF-3 (newer model?)

Paradigm seismic 10 (depending on price)

Energy 12.3 (apparently this one is good for the money)

My primary concern is palpable, musical bass, that will blend well. The option of the onboard mic/autoroom EQ on the SPL-R series is looking very attractive to me at this point. I really liked the RSW10d but I think I'm looking for a bit more omph in the lower end of the FR.

If anyone has some more detailed or first hand impressions from any of these subs I would be curious to hear about them.

I see you have returned theEAR, did I miss something?

My budget is around $1800 canadian(after taxes,duties,shipped etc). I'll also add that i'd much rather have something new and I live in BC, the vancouver area.

Thanks!

- Ed

[TheEAR]

Yes TheEAR has returned,I read too much pulling in many directions here.

Lets cut the crap and point in the right direction. Paradigm's Seismic 12 sould be yours for well under $1800 and will stomp the Energy,Velodyne SPL1200,the RSW10d.

The VTF3 will have an edge over the Seismic 12 on very deep bass,and the edge is MINUTE,a non issue.Of course the VTF3 is cheaper so...but far larger..so your choice.

Also you mshould know Paradigm's PW2200 is very much like the VTF3(slight edge to the VTF3) and you should find one for well under the VTF3 in Canada.

Energy would be a great choice if funds are scarce and you look at the cheapest soution with good performance.Paradigm has simply the edge in price performance,from the PW2200,passing by the Seismic subs to the classic Servo 15(a proven sub competing with subs at twice its price...HGS/DD series).

any questions?

PS And you know what I emailed SVS and shipping is not even expensive ...only $200 to Montreal Canada on a very bulky and heavy Ultra with two TV12 woofers! So figure around $100 for a single driver PLUS series ported sub.I would go SVS each time if I wanted max price/performance ratio in a ready to woof sub. []

Above all,go out find some dealers and try to listen...compare.To get a godo idea how some stack up.I tell ya with teh Seismic 12 or PW2200 you have a winner and the SVS Plus subs are also sure bets.

[Swerv]

Why scratch the Velo SPL1200R off the list?, everyone ive talked to seems to think it would be the most musical of the bunch with still very good performance.

Also I've heard not so good things about the PW2200... I don't know if ill get around listening to one but ill see if I can include it.

SVS is out of the question for me because I wouldnt be able to audition it and I'm interested in something perhaps a little more musical, and dynamic.

[TheEAR]

Why scratch the Velo SPL1200R off the list?, everyone ive talked to seems to think it would be the most musical of the bunch with still very good performance.

Also I've heard not so good things about the PW2200... I don't know if ill get around listening to one but ill see if I can include it.

SVS is out of the question for me because I wouldnt be able to audition it and I'm interested in something perhaps a little more musical, and dynamic.

Musical....[]

Yes you could say it is musical,you see in Canada I can get a Seismic 12 for less than a Velo SPL1200.And the Seismic 12 is a better sub,performance wise.

The SPL1200 with hold its own if you do not ask for as much deep bass output.

[Swerv]

So a little bit of an update... Today I spent my day listening to several different subs in a few shops...

Armed with a copy of Titan A.E(ice crystals & making a planet scene), LOTR 1 (Balin's tomb & Bridge of Kazadun scenes) and a Cd with my own music and sub demo material.

I have narrowed my search somewhat... but I think I'm more confused today after all the auditioning than before I started.

The first Subs I listened too were by REL, model 205 (10 inch sealed 200watt rated) and the 12 inch version which was well over my budget by about 900$cad the 505.

What I learned from the sales person was that REL was definately the featured brand and it seems worshiped by that shop, the salesman took about 30 minutes just to explain why REL uses a custom, proprietary connection for music, basically a cable that goes from the L/R speaker outs on the receiver, to a special connector on the back of the sub. It also has the standard LFE(sub ) input that all subs have for DVD etc. Apparently the claim is that the signal has a delay when used out of the LFE, and that makes the notes appear to linger and not be in perfect harmony with the mains. I asked if it was some sort of a gimmik because I did not believe a word of it.

Anyway I was just listening to what he had to say because he was very polite and even if he was bullshitting he was doing a very convincing job. I put on some music and at first I didnt notice the sub, the mains were $6500 Sonus Faber Towers... not exactly what I would have at home, they sounded lovely ... amazing actually. But I did not notice the presence of the REL he switched it on and off several times during the first session and in some tracks you could tell but it was barely noticable and had almost no presence. I'm not sure if this is how a musical sub is supposed to sound but I wasn't entirely convinced.

A little later on I loaded up the cave troll scene from LOTR, and asked to try the 505 to see if it had more presence. I definately noticed that one , and it was fantastic. The cleanest sounding sub I've probably heard to this date, and it extended low. For LOTR which is quite LFE heavy, especially those scenes. I A/B'd between the 505 and the 205, noticed the 205 had some energy to the 5.1 soundtrack but it was almost like the mains were doing most of the work, still the 205 did an excellent job in matching them and overall I was impressed with the quality of bass I heard, but not the quantity. I played some low freq stuff and looked at the driver. It was moving for sure but I couldnt hear or feel much. He claimed in room response to about 15 hz, I kind of laughed in my head thinking at what dB level.

Well my next audition was the Velodyne SPL1000R which I had very high expectations, and this was my 2nd audition and a more serious one as I had my own selection of tracks and music to play. I put it through its paces... however I will say flat out that I was very very very disappointed with the output this thing had down low. In all honesty I could see that woofer working very very hard to produce the low 20s but I wasnt hearing or feeling any of it. It seemed to roll off very early. Not much better than my cheap Klipsch Ultra sub that is designed for PEE CEE speakers. (maybe im spoiled or my expectations of this little unit were too high?) I will say that for HT it was the best of the bunch I listened too. the FR was not bad, but the notes were not nearly as rythmic, or clean as the REL. It did have one thing going for it. No matter how hard I pushed it I could not hear distortion in fact I could see that as I kept going up on the volume knob of the reciever the Woofer was maxed out but it was still producing a clean signal, a limiter yes... but it seemed to be doing its job really well ... capping the output at its max while maintaining a very distortion free bass. It seemed like the SPL1000 would do well in a very very small room but in anything normal size it would have a hard time pressurising it in the low 20s.

I compared it to the Totem Storm breifly, I liked the totem more for music but for HT the spl1000 definately filled the room with more energy @30hz and up.

Now I left that shop somewhat disappointed and skeptical as to if I should even consider the 1200R after that poor audition.

Next up a serious session with the Klipsch RSW10d (new model with the longthrow driver)

I'm not sure how to put it but this sub is slightly larger than the minute SPL1000, and the RSW10d is rather small. In terms of output and SPL id actually give the edge to the RSW, in the listening room I was in it seemed to love 35 to 45hz and there was a noticable peak there. However It had the most output down low of all the subs I've heard so far. At first I was looking at the front PR while playing some loud passages in the low 20ish hz frequencies and thinking wow thats some decent output and the driver is barely moving. Later I noticed the back driver was moving with hurricane like force. There was some serious serious power here and a very very robust driver with by far the longest travel ive seen in a HT sub to date it looked like 2.5 to maybe even 3 inches. It extended the lowest of the bunch but suffered the same musicality flaws and it was not as rythmic as the REL, but sounded 2nd best of the bunch for music and could compete with the SPL quite well for HT. I think if there was an RSW12d with the same driver I would probably jump on that. however the retailers here dont seem to have the RT10d and RT12d even still they seem to be over my budget and I wonder if they are really a significant improvement over the RSW10d.

Last but not least I stopped by futureshop to see if they had any bookshelf stands on sale to find they just got in a new model of the velodyne (entry level / mid level ).the DLS-5000R is the new model they just got in, and it is a mammoth easily 3 to 4 times the size of all the subs I listened to today... I is also the only ported sub I auditioned. Another thing to note it was not a proper audition they had it on the main open area no walls around other than a pillar and the floor. This unit had serious serious output and depth that matched the RSW10d and a hint of pressurewaves could be felt in the large openish area several meters even from the sub location. I bet in a smaller room this unit would be too much. The problem here is this sub was a joke for music, It sounded like a boombox compared to the other subs I heard today, very disappointing for music but also almost half the price of the others. It had a peak around 45-55hz. From what I could tell this unit had the same type of distortion protection circuitry as in the Velo spl1200R when pushed and pushed and pushed... the output would hit a plateau but not go into bottoming out the driver or clipping the amp, and the bass would remain somewhat clean but not nearly as clean as the Spl1000. I quickly scratched this one off the list but at 999$ CAD It would be fun to have 2 of those just for kicks. I'll have to pass here and hope there is a sub out there that will satisfy my musical taste as well as decent output throughout its range(hopefully to at least 23hz in room or so)

My plans are now to try at home, the RSW10d, the velo1200R and perhaps a paradigm seismic 10 or 12( i think the 12 is out of my range) I have not heard the paradigms yet but if they are regarded as a fantastic value then I will definately find a way to audition them.

For a frame of reference, I might be able to get 15% ish off the RSW10d retail @ $1679CAD. ( so basically get the unit for $1679 after taxes)

The Velodyne SPL1200 I can get for around $1800 after taxes

the REL 205 I can get for around $1800 after taxes

The Paradigm Seismics? im not sure what those can be had for hopefully around 1800ish.

I plan on auditioning the spl1200R tomorrow at a different location and will give an update if I liked it or not.

[TheEAR]

Swerv,

It is not even a remote surprise you found the REL the most musical(least intruding and irritating)of all the subs you listened to.REL adds almost no colorations and is what I and a few audiophiles call a sub with pace.It will disapear,like any high end sub should.

Subs that stand out and boom are pure garbage,improperly set up to boot.

The cheapo trash can DLS5000 you heard is a boom boom canister optimised for a huge 40Hz output ,plus the Future Poop amazing "audio room" and superb knowledge of the sales people made for a boom induced puke worthy epereince.Glad you quickly got repelled by Future Poop.They have NOTHING worthy for sale when high quality audio is concerned.

Now the new RSW10d needs to be cut lower to intrude less,Klipsch subs do a great job when cut lower than REL.As they are not as linear as REL and will intrude when cut higher.

Klipsch subs are AMAZING with drums,I tell ya I am on could 9 when listening to some quality drumming by Neil Peart,Dennis Chambers and company.Three RSW's some RF7's up front and it is live.The impact is almost life like.

BTW you should get a better price on the RSW10d,plus you have to listen to the Seismic 12 and here too be able to get one under $1700CAN.

Velodyne SPL range looks/sounds impressive as long as you do not reach too deep in the true sub sonic bass.I had the SPL1000 and sold it,in its place came the Seismic 1200,a mismatch in deep bass performance.

[Swerv]

TheEAR, thank you for that post I laughed outloud when I read "Futurepoop" and "Boom Boom Canister"

My thoughts exactly. I'm thinking so far the most musical and best performer Ive heard for music was the REL 505-R but that is severely over my budget even with some sort of a discount... Sigh.

I forgot to mention but the REL subs were crossed over at 25Hz, does this not seem a bit excessive ? what is the point of having it reproduce a few hz of bass, as neither unit was pressurising the room at 20hz. They were non intrusive for sure, but I did not get a good sense of what kind of headroom they had to work with or what their limitations were. Also the place that sells the REL has no return policy because it was abused... they do offer a 1 year trade in policy that they can take back a purchase a full price to upgrade or something along those lines.

I wish Klipsch made a unit the size of the energy 12.3 with the 12 inch versoin of the driver from the RSW10d and that amp... That would probably be perfect for what im looking for. And what do you mean about the klipsch subs cut lower? the crossover set to the lowest on them? Would this be advised as my bookshelves seem to roll off gradually after about 60hz.

Another update little update:

Today I went to a different shop to audition the Velo SPL1000-R , convinced that it was the unit or setup at the other location that led me to hear some anemic bass. There is no doubt in my mind that there is a quality diver in this unit powered by a massive amplifier, however this cannot overcome the laws of physics in its miniature enclosure... This sub as further tested today seems to have a highpass filter around 23-24Hz, very disapointing. As it doesn't even attempt to reproduce the lower footstomps in DTS- Jurrassic lunch as you can clearly see the cones moving violently with huricane like force on other subs this unite the movemnt was subdued until about 27hz and up... Overall This seems like an excellent powerful compact HT sub for frequencies 100 to 27Hz. I spend hours fiddling with controls settings tests measurments only to be more disapointed in its exension and lack of punch. This is a rumbler, seems to shake everything in the room but not produce much deep bass pressure or slam commonly found in klipsch subs.

I gave the Totem Thunder $2300 CAD a whirl and It had clean bass,quality furniture like cabinet that was built like a tank, and a hefty high quality amp. This unit was good for music but no where near the quality of the REL for music, comparable to the RSW10d in terms of pitch and articulation. It was rythmic but lacked impact and slam. The extension on this unit was even worse than the Velo, rolling off sharply after 35hz. Kind of disapointing considering its price tag and 10" active and 2x 10" passives in a somewhat larger box than the SPL1000.


The last one auditioned today was the Energy 12.3 So far this one is the best Bang for buck by far. It is a large one though, and has twin round ports on the underside, and a fairly hefty but not massive 12" driver. I'm thinking that I'm gonna be looking into getting subs in larger cabinets, this sub produced frequencies down to about 25hz effortlessly before gradually rolling off. It was as musical as the SPL1000R if not more... yet the bass was never anemic, there was palpability to it, and impact. Actually this unit had the most slam of all subs save for the RSW10d. In comparison to the velo DLS5000 which has a 15inch driver and a slot port on the bottom front, this unit was much better and produced much cleaner bass, but still not quite the quality of the Totem Thunder, the RSW and quite a far bit away from the REL.
In terms of deep bass this one has the most of all subs I have auditioned so far.


I think my next round of auditions are going to be much larger box subs, unforunately with the trend in sthetics these days... unless you go SVS or high end Velo, large boxes are getting harder to find it seems. I will try to include the HSU VTF-3 , and Seismic 12 if I can find a dealer.

[TheEAR]

Interesting read

I am surprised you heard a rolloff as soon as 35Hz with the Velo SPL1000! Any half competent setuo should not have any rolloff before 30hz.And a larger setup around 20-25Hz max.

The Seismic 12 will best the SPL1200 with ease,something tells me for you the best bet would be t listen to VTF3 or order a SVS in the Plus series(not the mini one of course).

The 25Hz crossover point on the REL explains the NON INTRUSION,and it is way to low as these compact REL subs have poor output below 25Hz anyway.Damn right they do not intrude,but at least cross them off at 40Hz.

[Swerv]

I was very suprised with the rolloff also, the room was a weird shape, and medium size... the sub was corner placed (spl1000) and front wall was longer than the rear wall, so not a perfect rectangle. In any case both the totem thunder and the spl1000 were very subdued in deep bass. The spl1000 edging it out and pumping out more spl but not going much deeper than about 27hz without some serious rolloff at 25 it was inaudible for the most part.

I have high hopes for the seismic 12... what is a price i can expect to get this little monster for? How does it perform for music? can I expect musicallity or is this going to sound similar to the spl1000, or 1200.

As for the REL, I see what you mean. It was excellent quality bass but more of a light flavor than a real presence or foundation to the music. I dont think the R-205 would cut it for me unless i was in a really small room and didnt care for sub 25hz freq.

So far I really liked the RSW10d and it seems a good compromise of power, musicality and reasonable depth. If it extended a few hz lower I would definately consider it. I will probably end up trying to audition the RSW10d in home, along with the seismic if i can. So I can A/B them

[TheEAR]

At work now,so more when I get back home ...

The SPL series is not lacking seriously in the so called "musicality",cut any sub as low as the REL's you heard were cut and ...BAM instant non itrusion(LOL).

The Seismic 12 should be around 1500-1600CANADIAN.I can get them lower but this is only my price in a place where I purchased over 70K of audio.Around $1500 should be a great price.

I will not go into markup on these but lets just say it is good,so they can make you a descent price and make some honorable profit.Shops that sell full retail,SCREW THEM.I agree with full retail when you have a newbie and have to take hours to explain,educate and set up the gear you sell.

Just my two cents

[psg]

Ask the Canadian distibutor for Hsu who the closest dealer is:

http://www.hi-fidelity.com/

I can't help you with your sub purchase. You are shopping out of my league. I have a Hsu STF-3 which I got direct from the distributor two years ago.

[Swerv]

Yea I found a place in vancouver that carries HSU, so ill go check it out. I'm wondering if you have had a chance to check out the R series (205,305,505) I like the 505, but am skeptical of the performance. How musical is the seismic 12,and if you heard the VTF, what do you think of its unimpressive driver... looks alittle dated by todays standards.

I'll be brining in my bookshelves to the shop that carries the REL this weekend to see how they blend. I'll post my impressions and bring a spl meter to measure the output of the REL.