Steve Donalson Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 I'll be sure to never patronize your place of business, your childish nature must be in direct proportion to your age. I have seen amps damaged by just such stituations, but I am not going to get into this discussion with an inexpereinced kid Bye~~~ Please elaborate, I'm interested in your comments. Regarding where my childish nature comment came from, along with amps you've seen damaged by such situations. You have been telling us how wrong we are. We've ran numerous tests with these very situations and have never experienced a problem. We've also ran this past some very well known and recognized engineers in the industry, they are in complete agreement with our comments. If you have data supporting differently, we'd love to see it. We'd like to see why/how this causes a problem with solid state amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trioid Posted August 29, 2006 Author Share Posted August 29, 2006 Peace ! I have inadvertently created a monster. [] In a sense, we are all on the same side..... here we are searching for the finest in audio. Unfortunately, electronics are subtle, and this tread is testimony to that. If we are to continue this, please folks, with some humility (no accusations here, just a request) trioid, aka jim [:$] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Donalson Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 "Trey Cannon" I think your confusing normal impedance which exist in a resistive load which is capable of dissipating power with reactive loads (i.e. inductive or capacitive) created when you introduce blocking inductors and/or capacitors which do not dissipate power and can only be reflected back into the amp. I realize you directed this toward Trey and I'm not answering this on his behalf, but.. Yes, you are correct. However, due to the very low amount of current and the fact that solid state amps have a tolerance for this, it will not harm anything. It may add a slight amount of noise, that could be measured, it will not be audible. This is a problem with dealing with TX, not so much with speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Trey Cannon Posted August 29, 2006 Klipsch Employees Share Posted August 29, 2006 A raw woofer (I.e. woofer only, nothing else) is reactive, not resistive. Note the curve. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> With no components connected to the woofer. As the voice coil is a coil / inductor it rejects HF the same way the inductor in series with the woofer in a xover will. How can you damage a SS amp by connecting a woofer only to it? Look guys, I know how to use an active xover. It is the best way to xover a speaker. But it is not the best for most end users. Heck, most do not understand what a xover does, much less how to use one. I have no real problems with using one in place of or with a passive xover, other than protection and true knowledge of what you have in the end. What I do have a problem with is you telling others that if they bi-amp or run an amp in to a LPF and woofer combo, they will damage their SS amp. This is just hog wash. How do you think a passive xover point is confirmed? 20-20 kHz sine wave is sent into a SS test amp. The amp is connected to the LPF and woofer. The test is run. I do this hundreds of times a week. The only time this is a problem is when I send 56V into the speaker in stead of 2.83V. (most speakers I work with dont like 56V that much). This is not a fight. I dont want to piss anyone off. What I want to do is not give others wrong info. Saying that more that 16 Ohms will / can hurt a SS amp is just not correct. Is there back EMF? Sure. Does it cause a problem in a SS audio amp? Not at all. Where in the real world is this not the case? Would any amp be happier with a constant Z? Sure. You show me a speaker with a constant Z and I will show you a resister. Speakerfritz ]jackpod I agree, walking away as well. Anyone who wants to put a constant reactive load of 306 ohms at 40hz on their amp attached to the HF section and 235 ohms at 15000hz on the amp attached to the LF section should first check with the manufacture of their amp to see if their amp can handle abnormal inductive and capacitive reactive loads in the abnormal range indicated below BTW: What is a constant reactive load in the AUDIO world not the RF world? In the RF world, all you say is true. I have worked on many CB radios that the SWR was more than 1% (1.3% including the meter) that had the finals burnt. In audio, this is just not the case. OH, I have confirmed what I have said with other EE's here at Klipsch. I also have checked with FLOYD and ADAMSON electronics text books. I AM not just repeating what others tell me. How do you think I managed to get a job in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />engineering Dept of one of the worlds best audio co's.? Wait, don't answer that....[]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 As a person who has tried (and liked) passive biamping, but ceased the practice because of concerns about damage to my amps, I have a follow up question for Trey and Steve Donalson. I noticed that both of you appear to confine your comments to solid state amps. Most of us who have tried the so-called "fool's biamping" have done so because we want to run some type of tube amp (be it SET or PP) for the high frequencies. Otherwise, I have not heard noticeable benefits of just running two SS amps. I honestly am still searching for some additional input on the subject of passive biamping and would gladly return to it if damage to my tube amp(s) was unlikely. My solid state pro amps (QSC) I am that not concerned about. Its amazing what deals you can get on those amps, preowned-wise. Do your comments about no damage to amps with respect to passive biamping also apply to tube amps? Or are we talking about a entirely different creature..... Appreciate your thoughts. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 From another thread: "The problem with said amplifiers is driving an input signal at broadband music spectrum with no load on the amp through a large portion of the range. It can damage certain kinds of amps..." "The filter in the switching amps is a dead short at the resonant frequency if there is no load..." "I'm not willing to gamble on the insulation breakdown voltage in someone's vintage tube gear." -- DJK I've always been told it's hell on tube amps. I know Mark Deneen doesn't like the idea. "As the Z goes up the current and voltage (I and V) goes down." -- Trey Cannon I love you Trey, but what version of Ohm's Law are you using.? If power is constant, voltage will go up as current comes down. If voltage is constant, power (watts) and current will drop. Well, so says my Ohm's Law Calculator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivendell61 Posted August 29, 2006 Share Posted August 29, 2006 From another thread: "The filter in the switching amps is a dead short at the resonant frequency if there is no load..." Just FYI: The Hypex/UcD based switching amps are unconditionally stable with no load attached--even at full vol/clipping. No problem at resonant frequency. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Donalson Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 As a person who has tried (and liked) passive biamping, but ceased the practice because of concerns about damage to my amps, I have a follow up question for Trey and Steve Donalson. I noticed that both of you appear to confine your comments to solid state amps. Most of us who have tried the so-called "fool's biamping" have done so because we want to run some type of tube amp (be it SET or PP) for the high frequencies. Otherwise, I have not heard noticeable benefits of just running two SS amps. I honestly am still searching for some additional input on the subject of passive biamping and would gladly return to it if damage to my tube amp(s) was unlikely. My solid state pro amps (QSC) I am that not concerned about. Its amazing what deals you can get on those amps, preowned-wise. Do your comments about no damage to amps with respect to passive biamping also apply to tube amps? Or are we talking about a entirely different creature..... Appreciate your thoughts. Carl. Carl, I have to admit my ignorance when it comes to tubes. My knowledge there is quite lacking, but what I do know is that tubes can't be operated without load because if driven into clipping, the output transformer can be damaged by the high voltage transients generated. At least that is my understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trioid Posted August 30, 2006 Author Share Posted August 30, 2006 I suspect that depends on if they have a feedback loop from the load, which mine does not. I can operate it safely with no load at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackpod Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 So now we are getting to the bottom of this. Maybe todays SS technology can handle passive bi-amping but I know when I was still doing eletronic repair in the early 70's you could blow SS finals by looking at them wrong and it has been verrified by who I consider an expert (DeanG) that this procedure can be harmful to tubes. The point I was trying to make is this, since it is not proven all amps can handle this and there is no way of telling what amps the user has or plans to use that this could be damaging to your amps. To advocate something that could possibly damage someone's equipment is wrong. Unless someone wants to compile a list of what amps can handle this, I believe it would be easier to educate the user on how to use an electronic crossover since there is no risk involved. Active bi-amping has so many more benefits, one being each amp only has to reproduce a portion of the audio spectrum which reduces IM distortion (I Believe) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trioid Posted August 30, 2006 Author Share Posted August 30, 2006 Hmmm. My tube amp is a zero global feedback design. Other designs may not be so forgiving. following jackpod's comment: to be safe and take it out of our hands -- one should check with your amp manufacturer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trioid Posted August 30, 2006 Author Share Posted August 30, 2006 oops.... didn't think the first one went through! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay L Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 TRIOID said: Therefore: To be safe -- Check with your amplifier manufacturer! This is great advice. Some amplifier manufacturers will specify if they can handle reactive or inductive types of loads, if you question your hook up method you should contact the amp manufacturer directly. Klipsch feels comfortable in offering the capability of bi-amping, that does not mean it can quantify every manufacturer out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiobliss69 Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 I'm going to have to look into active crossovers, I do believe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Trey Cannon Posted August 30, 2006 Klipsch Employees Share Posted August 30, 2006 For the record, I have never bi-amped my home system. To ME it is not worth the trouble. DeanG: My bad...the keyboard got away from me...[:$] I love you to brother. I have only been talking about SS amps. (most of what I know is of SS amps that are under 20-25 years old, before that, I may be speaking out of turn) I should take my own advice. Never say Never in electronics. As stated by others, you can take measures to make a tube amp work in a bi-amp system. I will say that what I know about tube amps fall in the RF amp and not in the audio amp. I know for a fact that many of you know more than me about tube amps. A way to do this is with a passive xover on the input of your tube amp. We used them in car audio for different things. It is cheaper than active and quick. F-mods, I think parts express has them. Choose one about 1 octive below your HPF. http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=3 Is this better than active, no just different. Klipsch may provide info on bi-amping. We even provide xover networks that can be bi-amped. How you use this info and these products is you choice. My only point to all this is that SS amps are ok with HFP or LPF only. For you tube guys, If you amp will not take a open load on its output, how would you protect from a driver that fails open? If you have a cornwall that has an E network and the woofer opens with the amp on, does it kill your amp? again, I don't know tube amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Trey Cannon Posted August 30, 2006 Klipsch Employees Share Posted August 30, 2006 jackpod, If by building a speaker with seprate HF and LF inputs klipsch is advocating bi-wiring. (per our OM) We (no where that I can find) say to bi-amp the speaker. All of our home OM states (standard and bi -wiring). As tech support we say you can do it, but you should understand what you are doing first. 2 SS amps, you are ok. tube gear, your on your own. Active is the right way, but it has its draw back as well. You don't get something for nothing...wait that sounds like a song...."RUSH RULES" One thing we all can agree on is that no one wants damaged gear. Therefore, I suggest we no longer have more that one set of binding post on speakers.[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackpod Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 Not necessarily... this all started way early in the post, all I did was point out the possible dangers, I have actually used a combination of active/passive using the HF and LF binding posts. No amplifier will care if there is a little overlap in bandwidth but if you take an amp that say only drives a tweeter with a passive xo at 7.5khz and the signal contains excessive LF content, that is not good, beside you are defeating the true purpose of multi-amping. With active xo the amp only has to reproduce a small part of the entire musical spectrum. this is the whole concept behind using powered subwoofers. By using active XO the improvements are much like using monoblocks. I did Pro sound from 1969 until 1979, we always used a combination of active/passive xo's, often letting drivers roll off naturally. In my current home setup I use a combination of active/passive but I don't feed an amp full bandwidth with a passive only passing a couple octaves of the spectrum. All of my Paradigm Studio Reference have LF/HF binding posts, I have experimented. All of my amps are McIntosh both tube and SS. I personally do not recommend it FWIW All I said was this procedure should not be automatically taken for granted, that there could be risk involved Active xo's are not rocket science, neither is the concept. In my opinion the passive bi-amping procedure reaches the factor of dimenishing returns way before the benefits. You are not taking advantage of splitting the bandwidth that the amp has to reproduce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Trey Cannon Posted August 30, 2006 Klipsch Employees Share Posted August 30, 2006 Jackpod, I will agree to all of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trioid Posted August 30, 2006 Author Share Posted August 30, 2006 nonetheless, IN MY CASE, it sounds better that is all.... jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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