newbie with amp-matching Q

[Xcaliber]

Hello Klipsch fanatics I am a college student, and just 2 days ago bought my first piece to building my first HT setup. I know a decent amount about computers, and a bit of car audio, but home theater equipment leaves me a bit in the dark (or should it be 'deaf'). The reason I am coming to the Klipsch forum is I just purchased a pair of KG4.2's in near PERFECT condition in Oak Clear from the local classifieds for 100$ even. He said he was selling them due to hearing damage and hadn't actually used them in the last few years- visibly so, judging by the dust. The only possible thing wrong with them is a little bit of something black and tar like on the top of one cabinet over like 1/4 inch... I'll live with it They even had black MDF floor risers, which I didn't know anything about. Only thing they lacked was some paperwork. I've already done my research on cleaning them up, and am ready to move on to more technical stuff

So anyway, I'm looking for something to power these beasts. My father has a great Infinity setup in our basement, and I tested them out with his 4ohm Harman-Kardon amp. (not sure what model off the top of my head) They sound great with that amp, and from all i've read on here, HK is a good match for the speakers. However, mind you, I'm on a rather tight budget. I will probably only be willing to spend up to 200$, and would prefer to stick to about 100. I would like to go with an integrated amp, however I am figuring I need to at some point pick up some kind of equalizer as well- my ear is picking up a bit too much in the midrange. I am willing to get an amp and preamp seperately, but as this is most likely more expensive, would prefer not. What amps should I be looking for? I need some models to be watching for on ebay and in the classifieds. (mostly ebay)

I obviously cannot drop the bills for a tube amp, but I don't mind staying somewhat vintage as my speakers are in the 92-94 range. I wouldnt mind having something which the volume could be controlled from a remote, because that is one thing that bothers me about my fathers amp. Thats only a little factor tho, right now i just want something bargin bin priced which will provide me with a clean signal.

Thank-You in advance, and I look forward to conversing

Chris

OH also, I don't need HDMI and all that stuff as I am using a 27" bear by Sony Trinitron from 1988. (works great tho!) I figure that wouldn't be in my price range anyway, but ya never know what information is relevant.

[Guest " "]

Initially I was thinking you should stick to 2 channel to keep your cost low. I went to ebay cause I saw a pioneer sa6700 amp and a pioneer tx6700 tunner running close to end time and still at less than 30 bucks each. But then I found the below. The auction ends in 5 minutes so i dought that you will have time to check it out. But the seller says he has 6 of them and he has a buy it now price of 145 bucks. He indicates it is a 7.1 system. Check it out, not saying you should buy this one, but look for deals in this price range.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Pioneer-VSX-516-S-7-1CH-WMA9-Pro-Dolby-Digital_W0QQitemZ270021736514QQihZ017QQcategoryZ39799QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Xcaliber]

Doesn't look too bad, and it is toward the top of the price range at 180$ shipped, however he indicates the power through 8ohms setup. I was told that the speakers were 4ohms, and that a 4ohm amp was required to run the kg4.2's. Is this correct? I'll have to hunt down a quick stats chart and paste it up so that anyone who is not directly familiar with the specific speakers can more efficiently assist me.

Also I wouldnt mind getting a 5.1 amp, as later on I may add on to the setup, but for now and possibly for the next year or 2, I'll most likely stick with just the pair that I have, so I wouldn't mind just going with a 2channel amp. The only thing I may add is a 2.2v or a modified kg4.2 center channel. What would I need to run the extra center channel along with the pair?

Once again those are optimistic plans, so 2 channel power is what I am leaning toward. I'll get a chart but i believe they are 100w RMS 500w Peak.

[Xcaliber]

ok perhaps the guy was wrong... Original owner told me 4ohms, according to the klipsch website they run at 8? I don't really know what it actually means, but i do know it is important to get it right

Heres the important things plastered on the Klipsch webfront

Oh also, is there any way to find out if they did the filtering thing to bring down the THD percent? I heard that this was a big problem, as manufacturers even sacrifice SQ to bring down this percentage to make the amp appear more attractive.

KG4.2 (made 92-94, mine are oak clear)

FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 36Hz-20kHz±3dB

POWER HANDLING:

100 watts maximum continuous (500 watts peak)

SENSITIVITY:

95dB @ 1watt/1meter

NOMINAL IMPEDANCE:

8 ohms

TWEETER:

K-85-K 1" (2.54cm) Phenolic dome compression driver

HIGH FREQUENCY HORN:

90°x60° Tractrix® Horn

WOOFER:

K-1005-K 10" (25.4cm) ICG cone active / KD-101-K 10" (25.4cm) ICG cone passive

[wuzzzer]

I just bought a harman / kardon HK3480 2-channel receiver on eBay for $175 in brand new condition. It has really smoothed out the horn of my RF-7s compared to the old Sony dolby pro-logic receiver I was using before. Great dynamics, very detailed sound especially when matched when a high quality CD player or other source.

Denon makes at least one 2-channel receiver too that may be worth taking a look at. The HK and the Denon usually sell for around $250 on eBay unless you can stumble upon a great buy-it-now deal like I did!

[Xcaliber]

Would the hk3380 be sufficient? at 2 channels of 80w each, that doesnt seem too far off, and they can be had refurbished for around 120$...

I put some watches on a few vintage denon receivers just to see what prices they were going to turn out at. I have heard many good things about denon as well, and picking up a receiver from 15 years ago that at one time was worth 600+ for 100 would be great.

Others?

[Xcaliber]

I believe I may have found the amp which I will purchase, assuming I can find the money for it right away to buy it now?

there is a Harman Kardon avr 70 listed on ebay for 80 bucks, buy it now 150 with 35 shipping... lots of time left, I may just bid on it with a max of like 100 until I decide if I can afford the rest of the cost.

It is 80w per channel in stereo mode, 70w per channel in surround mode, and i believe it is incorrectly listed as 4.1 instead of 5.1... this would be great as I could add on later without buying a new receiver. Also, its only about 9 years old. Seller says it retailed at 1,000$, not sure if that is true or not.

Sound like a winner? Should I be jumping on this immediately? The only thing it doesnt say anything about is the remote, and I already sent a question to him about it.

[wuzzzer]

MSRP was $1100!

Got a 4.58 out of 5 on audioreview:

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/amplification/a-v-receivers/harman-kardon/PRD_118581_2718crx.aspx?TabID=1

Nice thing about harman / kardon is they are very accurate about their stated wattage. When they say 80 watts, they MEAN it! As long as it has a remote, I'd say its a good start to a system you can build on in the future.

Strengths (from audioreview):

crystal clear sound throughout, Power. Sleek looks, Very good sound and stereo image, Crystal clear highs and sufficient lows. It easily powers a set of vintage Dahlquist AudioPhile speakers as well as all the surrounds and center and all that jazz. I have been nothing but impressed since I purchased this a few years ago. I was skeptical in buying this unit, but will never again buy anything without Harman/Kardon''s tag on it. Has undoubtedly been the best receiver I have ever owned, Crystal Clear Sound Stage and Incredible Response and Dynamics.

Looks like a lot of people have enjoyed their AVR70!

[wuzzzer]

Be aware that the receiver does not have dolby digital processing, only dolby pro-logic and dolby 3 stereo. No matter how much they sold for originally, dolby pro-logic receivers are usually selling for very very cheap these days.

So, when they say 4.1 what they probably mean is that since the rear surround channel is in mono it only counts as 1 channel, then add the front 3 channels and a subwoofer output and you have 4.1

[Xcaliber]

<--- rum and coke....

Anyway, in my attempts to talk logically,

I believe for the most part I will only be getting a center channel to start with, and upgrade to 5.1 later on. I guess that means I can get this amp, and then once it bothers me that it is only a 'single' channel in the back, i can buy a new one.

Also, I researched the selling price of a recent one, and it sold for like 60 plus shipping, so I may not have to spend the entire BIN price on it + s/h....

I'm liken it I dont mind it being a cheap amp because it is missing something, as long as it is providing a clean signal, its good to go

Chris

[wuzzzer]

That's the nice thing about going with pre-owned equipment. You can get some great deals on things that some would consider outdated, but if you don't need the 9.1 with hdmi/dvi/upscaling/quisinart features why pay for them?

My harman / kardon 2 channel receiver is only a couple months old, yet I was able to buy it for $175 with MSRP being $450.

[WMcD]

I think 4.1 means no center channel. But check before you buy.

Gil

[Speedball]

With a 45 watt denon receiver my 4.2's have always sounded clear but a little edgy. Now with my old 70's Kenwood 60 watt integrated things are much better and smoother. The black riser sounds like an aftermarket idea, mine did not come new with risers.

Good luck.

[Xcaliber]

once again appologizing for still being in a slightly altered state of mine,

I checked the stats on the avr70, the manual said it was 5 channel sound, and the pictures showed a connection as "center channel, 8 ohms" which makes me think it may have just been improperly listed. Maybe I'll post something a bit more accurate tomorrow afternoon when i'm straightened out.

Thanks for all the responses. I'm definitely hoping to get somewhere around 75+ watts, and if i can get a surround sound ready amp, it leads to a great plus. I'm not worried about buying an old amp, because like you said i dont need xxx.1 surround with 8 billion hookups of all the latest gadgets, I just need a pair or more of clean power.

Are we agreeing that this avr 70 may be a good buy? Is there another receiver i should glance at?

The risers are quite nice, I'll take a pic when i get my digital cam into the apartment (forgot it at home)

Allows the speaker to break that seal with the carpeting, but my carpeting is more like astro-turf then anything soft and absorbant.

Chris

[Xcaliber]

Ok I think I might have discovered why it is listed as 4.1... it is exactly like wuz had posted earlier, because of the surround sound decoding. Excuse my limited knowledge, but in reading most of the online owners manual for the AVR 70, Dolby Pro Logic only provides 4 distinct channels, being left, center, right, and 'surround'... So yeah the back channels would be duplicated on both surround speakers. I believe I have that correct.

I think I like this receiver, because if it sold at 1000$ at some point, it must have been able to provide good watts. I read all of those reviews from the site posted before, it would have been like a 4.8/5 except for one owner with a unit that failed. Hate how they feel the need to ruin review systems because of a DOA or other such problems which do not relate to the unit's performance.

Maybe how I'll play it is to just watch the bid and if no one bids, let it run all the way out and make an offer of like 100$ shipped to the seller. This saves me like 15$, and the seller doesnt need to relist. This gives me some extra cash to buy other speakers and such later on.

I already have a little bit of wiring, my dad provided me with his leftover monster cable 12g. So i have about 6-8 feet per speaker, enough for setting them up in the apartment.

So really all i'd need is an equalizer, or perhaps a cd player. I may just use an old ipod as a source. Who knows... 4 days left on the amp, we'll see how things go.

[wuzzzer]

You are correct in your description of the '4.1' feature of this receiver.

Unless you really need an equalizer, don't do it. They introduce a lot more noise and problems than they many times correct. If you look at the THD % and S/N ratio of most EQs its horrible!

Better to look for a unit like my old Sony receiver that has a built in parametric equalizer or one that has separate bass, mid and treble controls.

[Xcaliber]

Very good advice. I guess I'll look into not getting an equalizer then haha

The AVR70 has bass, treble, and balance controls... no mid. I suppose I can live with that, and hell, for all i know it was more a product of the other amp... I'm going to keep my eyes open... It's been a slightly boring weekend except for the night, so i've been on the pc most of the day looking at amps and such. Thats why i've been posting so often

[wuzzzer]

Its an exciting adventure when you're looking to get new gear. Take your time and make an informed decision. I reluctantly retired my Sony receiver because I loved the parametric equalizer and could adjust about 15 frequencies with it. Since I got my H/K I just leave the bass and treble flat in the middle and it sounds fantastic!

I just saw the eBay auction of the AVR 70 you're looking at. I like how the guy props the receiver up with his foot for the pictures. [:^)] Looks like it has pre-outs for every channel including a subwoofer. If you can pick it up for around the minimum bid you'll always be able to sell it for what you paid for it. Great choice!

[Xcaliber]

yeah the equalizer built in would be great.... but once again, we're talkin about frills clean power is all i really need... They had me worried as i read about how crappy amps with hiss/buzz's end up being amplified when using these speakers. I didn't know I could get a quality amp for less then 150$.

Also, my ear isn't exactly trained to hear all the intricacies of sound. I'm a vocal performance major, so I can hear tone and quality and warmth and tuning, but the mixture of the treble bass and mids isn't as prevalent to me. Hearing the kg4.2's before, they sounded a bit bright, and using the minor adjustment i could make on my dads h/k integrated amp, I was able to get the sound balanced a bit better to my ear.

I was amused by the shoe prop as well... lol maybe amused isnt the correct word for it :-/ but at least he didnt set it flat down on the face to take a pic of the rear panel? haha thats the best i can come up with on that one... (a counter top would have served him well)

Still no response on the remote thing... Going to be sending out a second request for that info.

And yes, if i get a minimum buy on it, I can most likely sell at the same price. This was kind of the way i went into it buying the kg4.2's from the local classifieds. I noted that they sell for more on ebay then he was asking for the pair, and after examining them, I knew they could be sold for more then I would pay for them if I decided I didn't want them.

Truely a win/win on that buy.

[Xcaliber]

Very dissapointing, it doesnt have a remote as well... I suppose this means I'm back to the drawing board on an amp. Remote wasnt a requirement earlier on, but as I think about it, It kind of is a necessity. I'm most likely going to be mounting it in the tv stand between the speakers so that I can still utilize the short lengths of monster cable that I have. This means it isnt exactly at a great place to be manipulated manually.

So yeah, still open to suggestions, and as we discussed earlier, a receiver with a built in equalizer would be great. Id prefer not go with sony, as I am not a big fan of the company. Perhaps an old Pioneer? My pap has one from 33 years ago thats still kicking strong. an old Denon?

Suggestions?

Chris