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Would you call tubes "accurate" or just really nice sounding?


damonrpayne

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...okay...an interesting conundrum...I had been listening to my EICO HF-81 with a Toshiba SD 3950 (no mods) DVD as the CD player...listening to The Jayhawks "Smile"...very nice...the EICO is original save for some newer output tubes...original since 1959...this is through my Quartets...no mods and perfect.

Since reading this and the Tube v Old SS, I decided to try something...

I have a McIntosh MAC 1900...checked over by Terry DeWick...

I hooked up the self same Toshiba SD3950...same CD (Jayhawks)...same Walnut Oiled Quartets and...

I am not digging it...sounds very good...bass seems different to my ears...sounds a little muffled compared to the EICO...so...

I don't pretend to understand or know what does what to which receptor in my brain only that I thought that McItnosh was THE sound I craved since I was young and all along, it seems to be Tubes (at least the lowly EICO or the exalted NOSValves VRDs)...can anyone explain in laymans terms what the heck is going on here???

Really want to know!

Bill

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Doc, I'd be interested to know your reaction to Hoffman's use of a SET amplifier in the studio.

Probably the same reason some studios have mocked up car audio systems in the back corner...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he's running a mastering studio targetting the "higher end" crowd, no? It would be to his advantage to use gear typical of his main listening audience; "referencing the mix" - regardless of what he feels is better. In fact, there are many professionals out there that recommend avoiding using what you prefer in the studio - that way you don't default to mixing for yourself. It forces you to keep the audience in mind.

Now if you're talking a tracking/mixdown studio it's a completely different world.

I am yet to meet a professional studio engineer that feels any different...

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Measurements can be both qualitative and quantitative. Both are equally important and you can't do qualititave aural measurements without an ear. All it takes to be objective is to avoid opinion.

I nominate this one as the "dumbest post ever!" Anyone else agree?

I love how you like to complain all the time. Good job.
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Mike, you keep missing a point that is very important. Most people are not unbiased and well informed.

Case in point for your litmus paper test..

how old is the litmus paper?

how knowledgable is the analyst of expected results?

how many masking, confounding, and adverse contaminants are present?

is the analyst properly trained how to conduct the test?

does the analyst follow the procedure properly?

does the analyst show due diligence in his performance?

do the results accurately reflect known conditions?

is the test a fair and technically exhaustive method of measurement?

are the bounds of the test correctly constructed to generate meaningful data?

If any of the above questions are not properly addressed BEFORE the test, even a simple litmus test may provide a false or wrong result.

As for Damon's original question, I find a good tube amp will provide a much more accurate reproduction of accoustic instuments. It becomes a tossup as the balance shifts markedly to amplified and electronic generated music. A HT setup demands amplification needs above normal tube amp abilities, so most people do run SS amps for that milieu.

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I would much rather spend my time discussing the actual ideas instead of the words.

Unless we use telepathy, we're stuck with using words.

That should read "the meanings of words" - surely you could have deciphered that as the intention? Or you just being ignorant trying to piss people off?
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Measurements can be both qualitative and quantitative. Both are equally important and you can't do qualititave aural measurements without an ear. All it takes to be objective is to avoid opinion.

I nominate this one as the "dumbest post ever!" Anyone else agree?

I love how you like to complain all the time. Good job.

No, man. That's just an objective, unbiased qualatative opinion!

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Mike, you keep missing a point that is very important. Most people are not unbiased and well informed.

Case in point for your litmus paper test..

how old is the litmus paper?

............

If any of the above questions are not properly addressed BEFORE the test, even a simple litmus test may provide a false or wrong result.

Dave, the way I see it none of that has anything to do with wether or not the scientist observed a color change or not. Interpreting the results in context of all that other crap is another issue altogether. If the chemist looks at the paper and says "hey, it turned blue" and this is considered subjective because he didn't measure the color of the paper, then there is a lot of science that is just subjective.

And I'm sure someone will bring up the point that no two people are going to hear things exactly the same way - well no two measuring devices will measure exactly the same way either.

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So I see this thread mid-afternoon. Step away from the computer

to take a leak, have a beer, take another leak, etc. come back six

hours later and it's up to seven pages and my cooler is empty.

Well executed tube gear, amps, pre, even cdp, are both accurate and nice sounding.

Haven't heard really, really high end SS so I can't comment. I

have heard good mid-fi SS and tubes offer way more in accuracy and

sound.

Music lives in the highs and the mids, accurate or fast bass, or heavy bass or thumpin bass, is just icing on the cake.

To my mind the obession to many people place on bass is just simply

misguided. It's a false argument, something latched onto by the mass

marrketers to move their product. It's a nuance masquerading as a

critical componenet of the listening experience.

The only time you need some serious bass is with Reggae, and if you are

smart enough to own gear with a bass knob, that problem is already

solved.

One thing to me is obvious since my foray into tubes. The

'steel", "grit", "distortion" "fatigue" is like day and night between

tubes and SS.

"Listener fatigue" is real and with there is no question at all that

listener fatigue is is not as big a factor in tubes as compared to SS.

Why do I suspect the above comments will not be accepted as gospil from above?

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Quoting Steve Hoffman:

You think I'm being paid? Really? You think WAVAC of Japan PAYS me to like their stuff? C'mon. This is troll fodder (and of course I'm taking the bait).

"Troll fodder"? Is that why Steve finds it necessary to have FOURTEEN moderators on his site?

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Quoting Steve Hoffman:

You think I'm being paid? Really? You think WAVAC of Japan PAYS me to like their stuff? C'mon. This is troll fodder (and of course I'm taking the bait).

"Troll fodder"? Is that why Steve finds it necessary to have FOURTEEN moderators on his site?

I saw that too, but then realized it was fourteen measured subjectively.

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Mike, you keep missing a point that is very important. Most people are not unbiased and well informed.

Case in point for your litmus paper test..

how old is the litmus paper? If it is past its use date, it will not be accurate or respond correctly.

how knowledgable is the analyst of expected results? Measuring the pH of rainfall is useless if you do not have grounded experience of historical results. You need to know the difference between a norm and an unexplained outlier.

how many masking, confounding, and adverse contaminants are present? Don't pull a sample from a container of unknown previous usage.

is the analyst properly trained how to conduct the test? Don't test using bare fingers to avoid cross contamination.

does the analyst follow the procedure properly? Without a validated procedure, auditors will not accept ANY results in a quantitative dbase.

does the analyst show due diligence in his performance? Again, calibrated equipment and procedures are critical.

do the results accurately reflect known conditions? Be ready to explain and justify an outlaying result.

is the test a fair and technically exhaustive method of measurement? With a litmus paper - no way!

are the bounds of the test correctly constructed to generate meaningful data? Is the sample point and population properly constructed?

Although you may think expirements are easy and simple Mike, there are an infinite variety of ways to apply and use results in wrong ends. A carbon dioxide rich atmosphere under pressure will rapidly neutralize a basic pH result. I have sent a wastewater plant worker to the ER after he correctly established the pH of an acid, and then pumped the residual contents from one 55 gallon drum to an identical half filled drum with the exact pH, only to have a violent reaction and explosion(don't ever mix nitric and sulfuric acid together.) I have seen workers sample an off service steam generator, and then add chemicals to an on service steam generator based on the off service results.

Everyone on this board has made some very simple(and very complex) mistakes at work and play, Mike. Accoustics is a pretty complex and exacting field, and you are still at a level of experience where "measure twice, cut once" is a good tenet. Working in the radiation venue, I get to play with a lot of similar principles, and I always start out with the instruments turned on...have had a few friends who were too smart to always be measuring, and walked into, and through, lifetime radiation dose areas with instruments not turned on. Ouch.

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So I see this thread mid-afternoon. Step away from the computer to take a leak, have a beer, take another leak, etc. come back six hours later and it's up to seven pages and my cooler is empty.

Well executed tube gear, amps, pre, even cdp, are both accurate and nice sounding.

Haven't heard really, really high end SS so I can't comment. I have heard good mid-fi SS and tubes offer way more in accuracy and sound.

Music lives in the highs and the mids, accurate or fast bass, or heavy bass or thumpin bass, is just icing on the cake.

To my mind the obession to many people place on bass is just simply misguided. It's a false argument, something latched onto by the mass marrketers to move their product. It's a nuance masquerading as a critical componenet of the listening experience.

The only time you need some serious bass is with Reggae, and if you are smart enough to own gear with a bass knob, that problem is already solved.

One thing to me is obvious since my foray into tubes. The 'steel", "grit", "distortion" "fatigue" is like day and night between tubes and SS.

"Listener fatigue" is real and with there is no question at all that listener fatigue is is not as big a factor in tubes as compared to SS.

Why do I suspect the above comments will not be accepted as gospil from above?

Sounds like a great way to spend an afternon. I'm jealous.

Bass is a nuance? I wouldn't agree with that even if opera was the only thing I listened to.

Listener fatigue is real, but so are many real instruments when heard when you're in the same room. This gets back to the original point of accuracy (transparency, doing nothing to the signal, faithfully reproducing the signal) vs. pleasing to the ear but admittedly doctored up.

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