Would you call tubes "accurate" or just really nice sounding?

[sputnik]

There will be a day when tube-bellied Sneetches and transistor-bellied Sneetches can live together in harmony without such cacophony.

[Duke Spinner]

glad ya finally graduated up to the big book's ... Sput's...[]

[sputnik]

glad ya finally graduated up to the big book's ... Sput's...[]

You're a mean one Mr. Duke. []

[kev313]

So I see this thread mid-afternoon. Step away from the computer to take a leak, have a beer, take another leak, etc. come back six hours later and it's up to seven pages and my cooler is empty.

Well executed tube gear, amps, pre, even cdp, are both accurate and nice sounding.

Haven't heard really, really high end SS so I can't comment. I have heard good mid-fi SS and tubes offer way more in accuracy and sound.

Music lives in the highs and the mids, accurate or fast bass, or heavy bass or thumpin bass, is just icing on the cake.

To my mind the obession to many people place on bass is just simply misguided. It's a false argument, something latched onto by the mass marrketers to move their product. It's a nuance masquerading as a critical componenet of the listening experience.

The only time you need some serious bass is with Reggae, and if you are smart enough to own gear with a bass knob, that problem is already solved.

One thing to me is obvious since my foray into tubes. The 'steel", "grit", "distortion" "fatigue" is like day and night between tubes and SS.

"Listener fatigue" is real and with there is no question at all that listener fatigue is is not as big a factor in tubes as compared to SS.

Why do I suspect the above comments will not be accepted as gospil from above?

Sounds like a great way to spend an afternon. I'm jealous.

Bass is a nuance? I wouldn't agree with that even if opera was the only thing I listened to.

Listener fatigue is real, but so are many real instruments when heard when you're in the same room. This gets back to the original point of accuracy (transparency, doing nothing to the signal, faithfully reproducing the signal) vs. pleasing to the ear but admittedly doctored up.

Maybe there is something to tubes=inaccurate, ss=accurate. I really have no idea. Frankly, I don't care. Not only do I not care, but I actually feel sorry for someone who denies themselves "pleasing to the ear" for the sake of accuracy. When I fire up the stereo every night it sounds good (more now than ever with the Oris horns in the house) and makes me happy. THAT is an easy thing to measure. This hobby would truly stink for me if I had to sit in my chair wondering if the reproduction was accurate.

[SilverSport]

Yeah!...like I was sayin'...[] []

Bill

[maxg]

Mark,

Missed your acceptance of statistical manipulation of subjective data being objective (and possible full of crap). Otherwise agreed.

All,

""accurate" or just really nice sounding?"

You know - you can have both. I never conciously set out to create an "accurate" system - it just kinda happened. I just made it sound the way I like and others concluded it was accurate. This concept should not be as hard a sell here as it might have been on other forums (fora?). Were we all electrostatic speaker owners I would guess it would go down like a lead balloon.

Just to complete the original story - we have a bunch of audiophiles in various stages of shock after hearing a real violin being played in the listening room.

There was a long discussion as to how to go about recreating that sound as faithfully as possible - with over-deference to me due to the system accuracy thing.

We concluded the killer accuracy system would be:

Vinyl, mono, Denon 102 on Linear tracker via mono phono stage

Tube monoblock with volume control direct into

Single Khorn.

A decent mono recording of a sonata.

It was a shock to all of them - and I guess to some of you, but, IMHO that should get about as close as you can to reality - should sound great too.

[SilverSport]

sticking my fingers into the fan...next I'm going to see if I can actually carry electricity better than those silver wires....

Bill

[3dzapper]

Bill, Make sure you have Debbie Boone on the CD.

"You light up my life....."

[]

Rick

[jazman]

Measurements can be both qualitative and quantitative. Both are equally important and you can't do qualititave aural measurements without an ear. All it takes to be objective is to avoid opinion.

I nominate this one as the "dumbest post ever!" Anyone else agree?

You betcha! I already suggested he change his login from Dr Who to Dr What?.

Klipsch out.

[Jeff Matthews]

What is being missed in the accuracy debate is that accuracy is not the goal. Good sound is the goal.

I know many of you have heard those stories from rockers who discovered a sound by accident. While recording a tune, something went awry, and the accuracy was all thrown off. Then, they were amazed and thought they kind of liked it. That's how something so awfully inaccurate turns into a new kind of music that people might enjoy.

This is also why you hear time and again people on this forum stating that certain rock "faults" are harshly revealed by the accuracy of Klipschorns. I can probably speak without fear of being wrong that the artist never intended you to hear these "faults," and that the accuracy you have is a detriment toward what was intended.

Ever since I got Klipschorns, I will admit that I find myself listening to less of the variety in my CD collection. The way they make certain songs shine is hard to repeat, and unfortunately, my demands have gone up.

[thebes]

"Bass is a nuance? I wouldn't agree with that even if opera was the only thing I listened to.

Listener fatigue is real, but so are many real instruments when
heard when you're in the same room. This gets back to the original
point of accuracy (transparency, doing nothing to the signal,
faithfully reproducing the signal) vs. pleasing to the ear but
admittedly doctored up"



Ok Damon, maybe I did get carried away a bit on the bass thing, but I
think a lot these discussions concerning sound focus far to much on
bass as the be all and end all of what constitutes good sound.



I certainly don't see how true accuracy can be achieved. The CDP
dac messes with the signal long before it gets to a tube pre
/receiver/amp whatever. I have accurate SS and tube gear (as far
as I can tell), but my ears tell me most of the tube gear takes away
some of that harshness, subliminal distortion, however you may call it,
and reduces listener fatigue, a very good thing in my mind.



Here's another nuance, my tube rectified stuff seems to be less
fatiguing and have less steel than my diode rectified gear, even though
some of the pieces are very near in overall quality and detail.
Go figure.



Whatever it is that is going on, I like the difference since I switched over to tube systems.

[Daddy Dee]

Thebes,

I wish the twins could weigh in on this one. Having good gear would be important to keep them from getting listener fatigue.

[SET12]

"Bass is a nuance? I wouldn't agree with that even if opera was the only thing I listened to.

Listener fatigue is real, but so are many real instruments when

heard when you're in the same room. This gets back to the original

point of accuracy (transparency, doing nothing to the signal,

faithfully reproducing the signal) vs. pleasing to the ear but

admittedly doctored up"

Ok Damon, maybe I did get carried away a bit on the bass thing, but I

think a lot these discussions concerning sound focus far to much on

bass as the be all and end all of what constitutes good sound.

I certainly don't see how true accuracy can be achieved. The CDP

dac messes with the signal long before it gets to a tube pre

/receiver/amp whatever. I have accurate SS and tube gear (as far

as I can tell), but my ears tell me most of the tube gear takes away

some of that harshness, subliminal distortion, however you may call it,

and reduces listener fatigue, a very good thing in my mind.

Here's another nuance, my tube rectified stuff seems to be less

fatiguing and have less steel than my diode rectified gear, even though

some of the pieces are very near in overall quality and detail.

Go figure.

Whatever it is that is going on, I like the difference since I switched over to tube systems.

Notes of an mature advanced listener no doubt in my mind! As far diode rectifacation I agree even Hex Freds could not compete with a GZ37 rectifier tube!

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Measurements can be both qualitative and quantitative. Both are equally important and you can't do qualititave aural measurements without an ear. All it takes to be objective is to avoid opinion.

I nominate this one as the "dumbest post ever!" Anyone else agree?

You betcha! I already suggested he change his login from Dr Who to Dr What?.

Klipsch out.

I found a great trick for enjoying the forum. Skip certain posts everytime. When I first started on this forum I found that I always skipped Mobile Homeless's posts after a while. I also always skipped Klipsch Dude's posts (although I always read alter ego's posts before I knew - I'll struggle with that later). It really cuts down on the annoyment. Give it a try.

[thebes]

Thebes,

I wish the twins could weigh in on this one. Having good gear would be important to keep them from getting listener fatigue.

Daddy Dee, a double-entranda, you devil you.

Let me see if I can get them to weigh in.

Um, Tickles could you come over here?

Sure Thebes, what's up.

Tickles it's the old saw, tubes sound versus accuracy, what do you think?

Well Thebes, do you remember when my Uncles Burr and Brown came to

visit? They were stuck on getting the signal through the DAC conversion

unmolested. Tee hee, that word reminds me of the time when I was

wearing that red teddy and having a pillow fight with Tawny. Oh

darn I got off topic again.

I told them it was absolutely necessary for them to employ Boolean

logic and time-phase alogorithyms in their calculations. For some

reason, though, they ignored the part about the Boolean logic and to

this day the signal path is still messed up an accuracy is hardly the

term I would use to describe it. Besides I like tubes, the ones

glowing on the Bogens right now match my toe-nail polish. I'm

thinking of paniting smily faces on my big toes for a different look.

What do you think?

Er, Tickles, I'll take a closer look at those in a moment, but first, Tawny could you help us out with this?

Accuracy versus sound quality? Thebes you are a maroon. By the

way did you pick up the laundry, has the Z4 been polished, and while I

am at that souffle you made for desert tonight was just a bit flat

don't you think.

Anyways, any good piece of gear will give you accuracy, you sure you

aren't confusing it with edge, which goes to SS in you're in a

nightclub and you've got a scanked up trollop on your arm like you had

at the "DJ Burnout" the other night.

Aw Tawny I swear that was just a friend of a friend and I was being a

gentleman by holding her up cause she was dizzy from ludes and

shooters. So go on.

While like I was sayin 95% of the time you don't need SS, tubes

give you the best sound, but like everything in life it's a compromise,

it ain't perfect.

Anybody doubts me come closer I got a Fender Stratocruiser hooked up to a tube amp I'd like to break over you head.

Now Tawny, you know what the parole office said about beating up on nice people.

Your right, she is one stone cold *****, I kinda like that about

her. Hey have you seen my itty, bitty brand new Slasher

tatttoo? Betcha can't find it.

Er, guys I gotta go.

[Parrot]

We concluded the killer accuracy system would be:

Vinyl, mono, Denon 102 on Linear tracker via mono phono stage

Tube monoblock with volume control direct into

Single Khorn.

A decent mono recording of a sonata.

Agreed, if you're playing a mono record, playing it through one Klipschorn is the way to go. But please don't let SWMBO slide your vinyl around on the floor.

[Daddy Dee]

Thebes,

Thanks for getting the twins two cents in this thread.

[Daddy Dee]

Parrot.

Very cool pic.

[kev313]

Measurements can be both qualitative and quantitative. Both are equally important and you can't do qualititave aural measurements without an ear. All it takes to be objective is to avoid opinion.

I nominate this one as the "dumbest post ever!" Anyone else agree?

You betcha! I already suggested he change his login from Dr Who to Dr What?.

Klipsch out.

I found a great trick for enjoying the forum. Skip certain posts everytime. When I first started on this forum I found that I always skipped Mobile Homeless's posts after a while. I also always skipped Klipsch Dude's posts (although I always read alter ego's posts before I knew - I'll struggle with that later). It really cuts down on the annoyment. Give it a try.

Wow. I must've taken that week off of the forum. I know you've all had the chance to deal with this issue, but.......it.......hurts.

Sniff...goodbye Kathy Mason.

(note to self: cancel "PeopleFinders" search immediately.)

[scott0527]

We concluded the killer accuracy system would be:

Vinyl, mono, Denon 102 on Linear tracker via mono phono stage

Tube monoblock with volume control direct into

Single Khorn.

A decent mono recording of a sonata.

Agreed, if you're playing a mono record, playing it through one Klipschorn is the way to go. But please don't let SWMBO slide your vinyl around on the floor.

You didn't see Dolores sliding any vinyl around on the floor. She would be preferable to the SWMBO above.