BigBusa Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 What happened to it? Is it a thing of the past? It seems that very few of todays recievers have this feature. I used it almost all the time with my 1994 Sony DPL reciever. At low volumes, which a lot of us are forced to listen at given living situations, the loudness switch produced a lot more bass and oomph in the sound without having to crank the volumes to neighbor annoying levels. I don't know what it does exactly but I can say that it isn't like simply adding more bass. It adds more everything. Are there any recievers availible today that still use this technology? What's up with the weak bass of a lot of todays recievers? I have a HK avr510 that produces such weak bass that it won't rattle my organs at any volume level ...without the help of a seperate sub. ------------------ My system thus far: 1980 Cornwalls (mains) 1990 Heresy II's (rears) 2001 KLF-C7 (center) 2001 KSW15 (Subwoofer) HK AVR 510 (reciever - Going back soon!) Kenwood DV402 (DVD) Sony KV 27V55 (9 year old 27" TV) This message has been edited by BigBusa on 11-16-2001 at 09:16 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 The loudness switch, the way it was implemented on most equipment, had a significant problem - it used one fixed equalization curve, which the user couldn't alter. If you had speakers that were more sensitive than average, you got too much bass and treble reinforcement, because you had the volume knob turned to a lower position for any given sound pressure level than the loudness button was calibrated for. Likewise, if you had speakers that were LESS sensitive, then the loudness button was undercalibrated and you got insufficient equalization. Some designs, don't remember specific brands, was long ago and far away, had a loudness control that was adjustable - you set the volume where you typically listened, then turned up the loudness control until you got the result you were looking for, then as you turned the volume up or down, the loudness contour would follow the Fletcher-Munson (?spell?) sensitivity contour. That worked pretty well. Be that as it may, almost everyone LIKED the loudness control, whether it was working "correctly" or not. So what happened? The "high-end" politically correct bastions of proper sound, who all thought (think?) loudness controls are right up there with jacked up supercharged Ford Pintos in the Hall of Stupid Adolescent Male Ideas, succeded in attaching such a stima of "loudness button = low tech low fi dumbed down equipment" that the marketing departments of just about every serious audio manufacturer reported to the design groups that including a loudness control was a sure-fire way to get the public to percieve that you were a non-starter in the field of "serious" sound. Ray, who STILL misses his loudness button. ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 Big- Up until a few years ago the Loudness control was pretty much standard on all McIntosh preamps. Yea, the only people that had the guts to keep it. And a variable one at that! It's great! I use (adjust) it all the time to compensate for engineering differences in the recording. You may want to contact www.audioclassics.com to see if they have an old Mac receiver (sorry no X.1 Home Theater) to see if they have one with such a control. The stuff they have use more than likely in A-1 shape after they go over it with the proverbial 'fine-tooth'. When I got my C33 Preamp from them I really could not tell it was 18 years old! I may get flamed for using it but as long as it pleases me.... ------------------ Tom KLF-20 Mahogany (Cornell Hotwired) McIntosh C33 Preamp McIntosh MVP-841 CD/DVD Rotel RB-1080 Amp Yamaha PF-800 Turntable/ Sure V15 Type V Cartridge Ortofon VMS-30 mkII Cartridge Stanton 999SS Cartridge Yamaha K-1020 Cassette dbx 1231 EQ H.H. Scott 830z Analyzer Monster Interlink 400mk II Monster Interlink 300mk II Monster Video 2 (DVD to TV) Studio Tech U-48RW Cabinet Monster Power HTS-5000 Power Conditioner/Surge Protector Original 12ga. Monster Cable Enough empty boxes for a fire hazard! This message has been edited by tblasing on 11-21-2001 at 10:03 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffgeorge Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 Yamaha receivers used to have variable loudness controls. They worked great. I dont know if they have them anymore. ------------------ RF-3's : mains RC-3 : center RS-3's : surrounds KSW-12: subwoofer Receiver: Denon 2801 DVD: Panasonic DVD-A120 CD: Yamaha CDC-765 Cables: Tributaries Sat Receiver: Hughes Direct-TV DD5.1 ------------------------- Family room: RB-5's (Mahogony) Receiver: Denon AVR-2000 (2ch.) Amp: Onkyo M-5000 (2ch.) CD Player: Yamaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBusa Posted November 16, 2001 Author Share Posted November 16, 2001 Thanks for the info guys. I can see how it might have gotten phased out under all that pressure. I just checked out some of the yamaha recievers and found that they have ..."BASS EXTENSION CONTROL Accentuates the bass by adding a 7 dB boost at around 70 Hz." ...I wonder if this is a loudness switch in disguise? Anyone with a Yamaha reciever? ------------------ My system thus far: 1980 Cornwalls (mains) 1990 Heresy II's (rears) 2001 KLF-C7 (center) 2001 KSW15 (Subwoofer) HK AVR 510 (reciever - Going back soon!) Kenwood DV402 (DVD) Sony KV 27V55 (9 year old 27" TV) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 First of all, I see we have reached a Weather Station truce! heh.... It really wasnt that big a deal but glad it came to pass. As for the loudness control, the reason for its demise in better preamps and integrated amplifiers is the same reason you dont see bass and treble controls in 99% of all high end gear. It added more circuitry for the signal to pass through and since the prevailing wisdom was that the simpler the path, the more uncorrupted the sound, it went out with built in equalizers etc. In all my preamps I have actually removed ALL controls except volume and source selection. In my Cary SLP-70, bypassing the balance controls brought about better imaging and detail. Ditto for my old vintage EICO HF-81, where a bypass of the entire tone control network and balance (focus on that beast) brought about more clarity and a better view into the details of the recordings. All this starts to really add up when you get your system tweaked to the point where all these points become readily apparent. I have found that I dont really miss any of the tone controls once I got my systems to the point where they were revealing (and still musical) enough to give me the performance with less of the the sonic signature of the equipment. Obviously, that is a goal that is only that, a goal, as it is almost impossible to achieve. Then again, I have found that removing everyting in the path that is unecessary to the reproduction of the source is a beneficial action. It is why passive preamps have become popular as the transparency brought about by removing ALL THE LINE STAGE circuitry is VERY evident. Of course, you must have enough gain from your sources up stream and interconnects must be kept short to avoid rolloff, but a quality passive device can really work wonders in removing the grit and grunge imparted my most, if not all, line stages. The loudness network was really invented so you would still get high and low end impact while listening to music at low volumes. With companies like NAD and Yamaha making it so that when volume was kick in, the conpensation network would gradually be reduced at faded to flat altogether if enough gain present. Once again, with a properly revealing system, this device is not needed and only serves to degrade the sound, adding another layer to the windscreen between you and the performance or recording. kh ------------------ s y s t e m Linn LP-12/Linn Basic Plus/Sumiko Blue Point Rega Planet Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Creek OBH-12 Passive Preamp Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks DIYCable Wire - Various 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I Alternate Components: EICO HF-81 - btw, perfect Cornwall match ASUSA A-4 EL-34 UL ProAc Mini-Towers EICO HFT-90 Tube FM Tuner Sumo Aurora Tuner Nakamichi CR-7af>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 The RX series, two channel, Yamaha receivers have a variable loudness control. It boost the bass and treble by cutting the midrange up to 30 dB at 1000Hz - works well too. Interestingly, the bass and treble controls on the RX Yamahas boost at the frequency extemes, 20Hz and 20,000Hz, respectively. Noteworthy: for receivers, these units have particularly good bass and bass control. Also, most receivers, integrated, or whatever, boost the bass at 100Hz with bass control, and usually add 10dB of bass boost at 100Hz when the loudness button is pushed (like turning the bass all the way up). With Cornwalls you defintely do not want your boost at 100Hz because it already has a mild peak in that region (see Belgian Audio test report response curve). You need it at the extreme, if want to boost the bass. Funny, NAD always stated in their adds that they "boosted bass at the extreme of the spectrum to avoid molesting the midrange." BULL. I looked up the NAD specs, and on every one of their current units the bass is boosted at 100Hz - just like everybody else's, except Yamaha and Nakamichi, which both boost at 20Hz. (There may some other "low bass boosters" on the market, but I couldn't find any after a pretty exhaustive search.) By the way, after all that, I listen to my system with tone controls defeated, except with movies, where I boost the bass a little bit at 20Hz to good effect. Warm, happy regards, Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 quote: Originally posted by BigBusa: What's up with the weak bass of a lot of todays recievers? I have a HK avr510 that produces such weak bass that it won't rattle my organs at any volume level ...without the help of a seperate sub. Big - You are kidding right?? My 510 with the Cornwalls produces awesome bass (ok not like a club or anything but it rattles walls). This is with the tone controls flat (I have to agree with Mobile here. Yeras ago I used to need an eq in my system but as I have upgraded stuff I no longer need it and the tone controls are always flat). Just wondering if it is room placement or something. Laters, ------------------ ...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world... My Home Theater Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBusa Posted November 16, 2001 Author Share Posted November 16, 2001 EQ_shad I should have said that I bought a refurbished avr510 that is surely a lemon. It's bass management is most likely not working correctly either. I saw a few other 510 owners on audioreviews bitching about their units weak bass output. I am betting they got lemons too. I don't mean to trash the 510 ...Mine and a few others just suck. Tom I'm trying to stay under $500 for my reciever so seperates are basically out of the question. 5.1 is a must and maybe even 6.1 if I can find a deal. Mobile I popped that weather ballon for you. Pretty soon you'll be asking me how the weather is here I bet! KG my old sony has a dynamic bass feedback (DBFB) button that boosts bass +7db at 70Hz. The regular bass control is + or - 10 at 100Hz according to the manual. I don't understand all of that but I know that the +7 at 70Hz sounded pretty damn good! I need to find a 5.1 digital HT reciever that will offer something like this. Even the new sonys don't appear to have a loudness switch. I like the fact that I can manipulate the sound to my liking. I'm not a purist who's after the true original recording sound. That is a pretty interesting pursuit and goal though! ------------------ My system thus far: 1980 Cornwalls (mains) 1990 Heresy II's (rears) 2001 KLF-C7 (center) 2001 KSW15 (Subwoofer) HK AVR 510 (reciever - Going back soon!) Kenwood DV402 (DVD) Sony KV 27V55 (9 year old 27" TV) This message has been edited by BigBusa on 11-16-2001 at 11:20 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 Hehe no problems. I don't own stock in HK or anything. I was just suprised by your statement. I will try some experimenting this weekend with the bass management with and without the subs and let you know how it goes. Laters, ------------------ ...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world... My Home Theater Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBusa Posted November 16, 2001 Author Share Posted November 16, 2001 I just did some digging and found out that the Yamaha "BASS EXTENSION CONTROL accentuates the bass by adding a 7 dB boost at around 70 Hz." EQ in your panoramic view (I love that pic!) is that a pelonis disc furnace on the hearth? And, What's the computer used for in the right corner? Is that a computer mic on the floor? Enquiring minds want to know! ------------------ My system thus far: 1980 Cornwalls (mains) 1990 Heresy II's (rears) 2001 KLF-C7 (center) 2001 KSW15 (Subwoofer) HK AVR 510 (reciever - Going back soon!) Kenwood DV402 (DVD) Sony KV 27V55 (9 year old 27" TV) This message has been edited by BigBusa on 11-16-2001 at 11:54 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowe byrrd Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 My Yamaha dsp-a1 bass boost is 7 db at 70hz L +R mains. The tone controls (treble/bass) are +/-10db at 20 khz and +/- 10db at 50hz for the l,c,r speakers. They are quite helpful with sizzley or bass shy recordings , esp. L.P.s and older c.d.s. But the yamaha has nice bass w/o that stuff. Aloha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBusa Posted November 16, 2001 Author Share Posted November 16, 2001 Thanks lowe! I'm not super fond of the million and one similar sounding dsp modes yamaha loves to include in their recievers but I'm looking at the rx-v1000 because of the superior bass management. ------------------ My system thus far: 1980 Cornwalls (mains) 1990 Heresy II's (rears) 2001 KLF-C7 (center) 2001 KSW15 (Subwoofer) HK AVR 510 (reciever - Going back soon!) Kenwood DV402 (DVD) Sony KV 27V55 (9 year old 27" TV) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowe byrrd Posted November 16, 2001 Share Posted November 16, 2001 I wasnt to hip to the dsp. thing at first either. First of all they're not all similar sounding, and w/in each mode several parameters are adjustable, to allow for personal taste. I often find them useful with the myriad of poorly recorded discs there are. Who'da thunk it? Good luck BigBusa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted November 20, 2001 Share Posted November 20, 2001 quote: Originally posted by BigBusa: EQ in your panoramic view (I love that pic!) is that a pelonis disc furnace on the hearth? And, What's the computer used for in the right corner? Is that a computer mic on the floor? Enquiring minds want to know! Ah you have been the first to notice the PC. I would have figured that more people would have said something. Anyway it is hooked to the TV via the HK510(notice that the THX logo is really just a windows background) and I surf the web with it. Also I play MP3's with it. The mic was to pick up music (I use line in now)for a music activated screen saver (great for parties or zoning). I am also playing with the whole HTPC idea and this PC is a test bed. It is kindda slow thou only a 950 with 768MB of RAM :-) The deal on the fireplace is a forced fan unit that blows out hot air (no not mine) when a fire is going. Whew well I think that answers all you questions. Look for a new shot shortly maybe after turkey day. Laters, ------------------ ...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world... My Home Theater Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 21, 2001 Share Posted November 21, 2001 My Accuphase E211 stereo amp has a loudness button. I have to say that I am not a great fan - seems to distort the music a little too much for my ears on the music I listen to. I can see that on certain types of music it could be useful however. I imagine that they went out of fashion on receivers and surround sound amps with the advent of powered sub-woofers. As these provide you the ability to independently control the level of the bass the loudness switch becomes somewhat redundant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBusa Posted November 21, 2001 Author Share Posted November 21, 2001 EQ_SHAD I'm trying to figure out how you hook a computer to a 510 ...I can understand that once the signal is connected to the 510 thenthe monitor out to the TV would take care of the rest ...I am more knowledgable about computers than I am about hi-fi so talk to me, tell me how you did that ------------------ My system thus far: 1980 Cornwalls (mains) 1990 Heresy II's (rears) 2001 KLF-C7 (center) 2001 KSW15 (Subwoofer) HK AVR 510 (reciever - Going back soon!) Kenwood DV402 (DVD) Sony KV 27V55 (9 year old 27" TV) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted November 21, 2001 Share Posted November 21, 2001 Hooking the PC to the 510 is a piece of cake (or since it is Thanksgiving I guess I should say pie yummy). All you need is a video card with a s-video out or a vga to s-video converter. I am using a ATI card myself. Then I hook the line outs of the sound card to the an input on the 510 (I am using video 2 if it makes a difference) and the line out of a tape monitor loop to the line in on the PC to get the signal for the sound screen saver. BADA BING you are now a multimedia, cross platform, home theater pc, MP3 listening fool :-) Laters, ------------------ ...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world... My Home Theater Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBusa Posted November 21, 2001 Author Share Posted November 21, 2001 gotcha -- thanks! ------------------ My system thus far: 1980 Cornwalls (mains) 1990 Heresy II's (rears) 2001 KLF-C7 (center) 2001 KSW15 (Subwoofer) HK AVR 510 (reciever - Going back soon!) Kenwood DV402 (DVD) Sony KV 27V55 (9 year old 27" TV) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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