i-Fi volume control malfunction

[ronwes]

It looks like they completely ignore this. Again Klipsch claims that the number of faulty docs is deminimus and to be ignored.

Unbelievable as this seems to be a little bigger. Here is a copy of the mail traffic I had with the company...

Maybe other members here should do this as well and the issue moves up in their prio lists...

It would already good if we can bypass the doc and can start use the IFI where is was designed for....

----------------------------------------------------------------

It could be a faulty batch of docks but like I said it was never a recall or anything like that on them When replying to this email, please include the
original message and all replies.Derek Schultz -PromediaPhone: 1-317-860-8505 Fax: 1-888-606-5776-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Klipsch Group, Inc. Klipsch | Jamo | Mirage | Energy3502 Woodview Trace, Indianapolis, IN 46267

From: Ron Wessels [mailto:ronwessels@xxxx.xx]
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 2:48 PM
To: promedia
Subject: RE: Faulty IFI 2.1 dock Thanks for your answer Derek.I understand your point, but did you have a look at your forum site ( http://forums.klipsch.com/search/SearchResults.aspx?q=ifi&o=Relevance) ? I’m a little surprised that this issue is not known to Klipsch as you can see that this problem is occurring on a number of units and not an isolated problem.Could it be a faulty series of docks? I’ve bought the IFI over the internet and the seller is no longer online….Is there absolutely no possibility to ship over the dock? Have it send through DHL?Of course I will bear the costs. Alternatively, do you know where I can order the dock in Europe as I hitting a brick wall searching for an alternative dealer. Your assistance is highly appreciated. Best regardsRon Wessels Van: Derek Schultz [mailto:Derek.Schultz@klipsch.com] Namens promedia
Verzonden: maandag 8 juni 2009 19:25
Aan: ronwessels@xxxxx.xx
Onderwerp: RE: Faulty IFI 2.1 dock Hello I am sorry to hear about the problem you are having with your system, unfortunately it is not a known problem, we have sold hundreds of thousands of those units, as far as the dock fixing the problem I am not sure just what the problem is, and also you will need to contact a local dealer due to we can not ship the parts overseas, the auth dealer should be able to assist you with the docking station. When replying to this email, please include the
original message and all replies.Derek Schultz -PromediaPhone: 1-317-860-8505 Fax: 1-888-606-5776-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Klipsch Group, Inc. Klipsch | Jamo | Mirage | Energy3502 Woodview Trace, Indianapolis, IN 46267

size=2 width="100%" align=center>

From: Greg Rodgers On Behalf Of Technical support
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 8:18 AM
To: promedia
Subject: FW: Faulty IFI 2.1 dock

size=2 width="100%" align=center>

From: Ron Wessels [mailto:ronwessels@xxxxx.xx]
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 11:10 AM
To: support
Cc: Sarah Knight; Fred Klipsch
Subject: Faulty IFI 2.1 dock L.S. Let me first introduce myself, I’m Ron Wessels living in the Netherlands, Europe.I hope you can help me with my problem with the Klipsch IFI 2.1 After careful research I have decided to buy the Klipsch IFI 2.1 for my computer at home. It should be one of the best out there. Although not coming cheap I decided to go for quality and purchased the set.The set worked beautiful but after a year or so the problems occurred.As my warranty has expired I searched the web to locate what possibly could be the problem.I landed on you forum site : http://forums.klipsch.com/search/SearchResults.aspx?q=ifi&o=Relevance and what I found was shocking.The problem I have seems to be almost a general problem. What is even more shocking, it seems that Klipsch is not supportive in trying to fix the issues and help their clients. I do understand that, most likely, there are lots of satisfied customers as well but it seems that there is still a more than fair amount of people out there experiencing the same problems as I do. I would be more than happy to buy a replacement dock, but according the blogs I’m reading this is not a guarantee for success. My question to you is , is Klipsch working on a possible solution? Can you guarantee that by buying a replacement dock the problem is solved? Can you please help me and your other customers facing the same problem?I would love to get the IFI back to the fantastic sound system it once was. Your response is highly appreciated Kind regards,Ron Wessels

[emice]

I am considering replacing the amplifier module in the back of the sub with another 2.1 channel unit, the Keiga KG-3100. It only claims half the output wattage of the original amp, but it should still be plenty loud, since doubling the wattage nowhere near doubles the volume. But more importantly, Keiga amps have been used and recommended by speaker building enthusiasts for years and don't overrate their wattage/distortion levels. When putting out the rated power of 25w to each satellite and 50w to the sub, THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) is at 0.08%. The engineers at Keiga could have kept turning the volume up until distortion got close to 1% and measured double the wattage. The measured wattage is not the max wattage the amplifier can put out, but how much it will put out before exceeding a certain percentage of distortion. The volume knob can go higher but beyond 25 watts the distortion level is too high so Keiga doesn't count it. The ifi amp's wattage was measured while approaching 1% distortion, so it is rated at double wattage of the Keiga, when really they are both close to equal. Both amps have low distortion at output levels below 2/3, and both will put out similar wattage at max volume, but with high distortion. Klipsch counts the higher distortion wattage because it is more impressive for your average customer to see high wattage
numbers than low THD numbers, likely because customers think that the wattage level is the loudness that comes out with the volume at maximum. Keiga's customers are
technically knowledgable speaker builders and want to know how high the amp can go before it begins to have much audible distortion. Two very different measurements producing very different numbers for different audiences, but both amps are similar performers, and good.

Below is my source for the Klipsch specifications -

The Owner's Manual for the iFi does not contain a power spec. The
focus of this system was not on power numbers but on quality of music
reproduction.

....

"Unofficial" power numbers (continuous) are 50W*2 for the left and right and 100W for the sub (THD
For
those who are curious: The continuous power numbers are measured with
an Audio Precision, and are calculated based on an RMS sine wave
voltage into known load. The peak power is calculated similarly, but
looking at the peak voltage with no visible (or audible) "clipping" or
"limiting" (i.e. < 1% THD). Until you approach the limits of the
amplifier the THD numbers are well below that, generally about 0.05% to
0.1% THD, depending on power level and frequency.

And more info on the KG-3100 -

The Keiga KG3100 2.1 Amplifier features a
50 Watt mono subwoofer channel and two 25 watt satellite stereo
channels. The amplifier is designed to be built into the subwoofer
enclosure and then run speaker wire out to the satellite speakers,
although it does stand alone just fine. There is an electronic
crossover (high/low pass) that is variable from 75 to 150Hz. There is
also a switchable bass boost and level control for the subwoofer
section. The amplifier will accept either RCA or 3.5mm Mini Jack
inputs. An optional KG-VC desktop volume control is available.

The KG-3100 is the perfect choice to build a system for your
computer, office or small apartment. Applications also include 2.1
channel Home Theater, I-Pod, MP3 player, portable CD player and other
small audio devices. This amp is also perfect if you are looking to
build a portable hi-fi boom box - just remember to chamber off your
left/right speakers from the subwoofer if sharing the same box.

Specifications:

Power output Watt@4 ohms: 50 & 2x25

THD: 0.08%

S/N ratio @ rated power: 76dB

Input sensitivity @ 100Hz - low level: 80mV

Input sensitivity @ 100Hz - high level: 3.5V

Input impedance: 22k ohms

Variable Crossover Frequency: 75-150Hz

Weight: 7.6 lbs

Dimensions W x H inches: 7-7/8 x 8-11/16

Cutout hole W x H inches: 6-7/8 x 7-11/16

Depth: 3-1/8"

AC Voltage: 115 / 230 switchable

As of
2007, Keiga Amplifiers will be warrantied for two years from date of
purchase. The amp must be sent in for us to verify the serial number.

The Owner's Manual for the iFi does not contain a power spec. The focus of this system was not on power numbers but on quality of music reproduction. .... "Unofficial" power numbers (continuous) are 50W*2 for the left and right and 100W for the sub (THD For those who are curious: The continuous power numbers are measured with an Audio Precision, and are calculated based on an RMS sine wave voltage into known load. The peak power is calculated similarly, but looking at the peak voltage with no visible (or audible) "clipping" or "limiting" (i.e. < 1% THD). Until you approach the limits of the amplifier the THD numbers are well below that, generally about 0.05% to 0.1% THD, depending on power level and frequency.

And more info on the KG-3100 - The Keiga KG3100 2.1 Amplifier features a 50 Watt mono subwoofer channel and two 25 watt satellite stereo channels. The amplifier is designed to be built into the subwoofer enclosure and then run speaker wire out to the satellite speakers, although it does stand alone just fine. There is an electronic crossover (high/low pass) that is variable from 75 to 150Hz. There is also a switchable bass boost and level control for the subwoofer section. The amplifier will accept either RCA or 3.5mm Mini Jack inputs. An optional KG-VC desktop volume control is available. The KG-3100 is the perfect choice to build a system for your computer, office or small apartment. Applications also include 2.1 channel Home Theater, I-Pod, MP3 player, portable CD player and other small audio devices. This amp is also perfect if you are looking to build a portable hi-fi boom box - just remember to chamber off your left/right speakers from the subwoofer if sharing the same box. Specifications: Power output Watt@4 ohms: 50 & 2x25 THD: 0.08% S/N ratio @ rated power: 76dB Input sensitivity @ 100Hz - low level: 80mV Input sensitivity @ 100Hz - high level: 3.5V Input impedance: 22k ohms Variable Crossover Frequency: 75-150Hz Weight: 7.6 lbs Dimensions W x H inches: 7-7/8 x 8-11/16 Cutout hole W x H inches: 6-7/8 x 7-11/16 Depth: 3-1/8" AC Voltage: 115 / 230 switchable As of 2007, Keiga Amplifiers will be warrantied for two years from date of purchase. The amp must be sent in for us to verify the serial number. http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=369" target="_blank">http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=369

[ronwes]

Sounds like a good solution. Please keep us in loop on how you go with the Keiga.

Again, I dont care if the volume is a little less as I want my Ifi working again in a normal way. Its just sad that Klipsch is behaving as they are.

What do you reckon to be the costs??

[emice]

The cost for the amp is $150 at the site I linked and there is an optional desktop volume control for another $15. The speakers are no longer in my possession and the owner will have to decide if he wants me to try this. I just wanted to put this out there for those looking for a permanent fix.

The first step would be to unscrew the existing amp and measure the dimensions of the opening. Compare that with the cutout dimensions in the specs for the Keiga, which are posted above. I don't have access to the sub right now but the Keiga is likely smaller, so a piece of wood cut to the same dimensions as the rear of the sub may need to be screwed or glued there, and the Keiga mounted to a smaller hole in that. If someone could measure the size of the cutout for the existing amp and post it here, that would be nice.

[emice]

Also consider replacing the amp in the subwoofer with just a regular subwoofer amp, without left/right amplification. Cost $90. Then use the 3 ifi pieces in a 7.1 home theatre. You'll still need 5 more speakers that are similar enough in size and sound to the ifi's. I'd suggest the Energy Take 5 set for $180. Add a 7.1 receiver for $300, use the ifi left/right speakers in the front, 4 energy speakers as side and rear surrounds, and 1 energy speaker as center. The new sub amplifier on the ifi sub will connect to the subwoofer line out from the receiver. A very nice theater setup for about $600, maybe $500 if you shop around or find a used receiver.

Energy and Klipsch are part of the same company and both ifi and Take 5 are known for packing a punch. The Take 5 has been recommended a lot over the last 10 years, and it is hard to find a bad review.

Subwoofer Amp $90

http://www.apexjr.com/amps.html

http://www.apexjr.com/150ClassD.htm

Energy Take 5 $180

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882269004

They are actually on sale for the next 48 hours for $130 with promo code EMCMNLP33.

Receiver $300

7.1 channels preferrably. I like Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo. Shop around. Denon will cost more, but the amplification tends to be a tier up. The Audyssey tech in some models intrigues me, useful if you want the system to calibrate itself for optimum response using a microphone. If you really have to keep costs down find an older 5.1 receiver for closer to $150. You'll have two extra Energy speakers in that case, which can be used in a second room. Many 5.1 receivers have built in support for stereo speakers in a second room, so that shouldn't be hard to set up.

[TedX]

I've had this problem too for a while now. The disappointing part is that I bought my ifi new, and didn't use it frequently, but it 'developed' this identical issue that apparently doesn't exist.

I tossed the ifi in the basement, and am now considering throwing it away, but I thought I'd check the klipsch forum first.

It seems to me that through Klipsch's continued silence regarding this issue, they are simply incapable of determining the problem. Browsing the earlier posts, I can see that a Klipsch tech (at some point) was in possession of a problem unit, and there was no further information from that.

I know they make good speakers, so I'm led to conclude that they just aren't quite technically skilled enough to integrate the great speakers with the great modern technology that is the ipod.

I did recently inherit a Bose 321 system from my recent marriage (because before, it was only yamaha/klipsch for me) and I am very impressed with the sound. I added a logitech ipod dock to the 321, and have replaced the ifi. I'd still like to be able to use the ifi, so I will continue to check this thread, because it sounds like the tinkerers (no insult intended, I believe the people posting here are very skilled) are getting close to unraveling this ifi mess.

P.S. if anyone from klipsch is reading, there is NO WAY i'm going to buy a replacement $60 dock that's going to give me the same issues a few months from now.

[RichSad]

I'm an idiot. Despite several well articulated messages here I went ahead and wasted $57 (plus shipping) to get a new dock in hopes of repairing my iFi. Volume control still malfunctions as before with the new dock. I should have trusted the community here.

What now? I want to make this thing work again! Any chance of getting my $57 back?

[duppa43]

AMAZING!!!! Klipsch is still making money on an product that they refuse to support!!!!

Hey Klipsch, here is a novel idea! Offer all of these people a reasonable solution to this problem; and keep hundreds of previously loyal Klipsh customers!!

WE'd even pay a reasonable amount to get our i-Fi's working again!!!!!!

Sorry RichSad, I expect your complaints will go unanswered by Klipsch, and you just donated $57 to a company that could care less about it's customers. You are so generous []

[Amy]

What now? I want to make this thing work again! Any chance of getting my $57 back?

If the replacement dock did not fix the problem, yes, it can be returned. Please contact customer service at 800-Klipsch, and also please convey the problems you have had with them directly.

Thank you!

[ronwes]

Given the the number of responses it would be a good marketing suggestion of Klipsch to help out the people that bought problem IFI docks.

Just think how you feel if you bought sometimg and it breaks without reason and the supplier telling you that the problem does not exist. If Klipsch is accepting its responsibility as manufacturer and replaces these faultly systems they create thrue ambassordors for the brand. This is what Apple is doing so well. Faulty device, replacement whitout asking. Everybody is suprised by their success but I can tell you that their return policy is greatly contributing to their success. I cant beleive you guys do't see that??!!

Let's start 2010 better than we left 2009 and Klipsch making the gesture to the people here. If it is true what Klipsch is telling us, "the problem is not known" and therefore diminimus, it schouldn't cost a lot to help us out and you stand for the quality your pretent on your website.

I can't understand Klipsch is hurting its trade mark over this..

Regards,
Ron Wessels, the Netherlands

[tc3sean]

FREE DOCKS FOR EVERYONE!!

[tc3sean]

If anyone has any insight about my issue please respond. My Ifi's have been broken for some time now, but when they wern't my sub was cutting in and out depending on volume level, and I believe my left channel went out also. I replaced the LM1973 IC chip, and nothing changed. So today I was checking out the bigger capacitors and I noticed two of them were kinda puffed up a little on the top and have heard from someone that they were blown so I replaced the ones outlined in red, and now both channels work great, volume dial works fine. BUT I get nothing from the sub. Only a faint hum sound. So my question is what would make this hum sound, and should I go ahead and replace the other cap's? In red I outlined the caps I have already replaced.Thank you for any input on my issue.

Don't worry about the size of the bigger one, its the same specs as the one that I replaced and radioshack didn't carry it in radial form.

[ronwes]

Great news,

I assume the part your showing sits in the Sub, right?

Thanks

Ron

[tc3sean]

Great news,

I assume the part your showing sits in the Sub, right?

Thanks

Ron

Yeah of course, what's the issue with your set?

[dbert]

I’m not sure I understand what your initial symptoms were. Your first post says

I am as well having this problem. Except, My rsx's are working fine and sound great, But It's my subwoofer that is acting up.

Can you elaborate more? What are rsx’s. Sorry, I just don’t understand.That must have been a big job replacing the LM1973. Thanks for taking that off the list for the rest of us.I’ve not seen a radial cap replaced with an axial one. Shouldn’t matter I guess. You must have the polarity correct since they didn’t blow up. I don’t remember seeing any swelling of my caps when I looked last. Keep going and perhaps you will figure it out for all of us.

[tc3sean]

yo dbert, alright let me start over a little I was pretty excited posting that earlier and maybe didn't think it out all the way. First thing I noticed was that the subwoofer would only work after about 1/2 volume iratically and then my left channel went completely out. Then I proceded to replace the LM1973 with this http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=LM1973M-ND But after i replaced it, the left channel still didn't work at all, neither did subwoofer. So I replaced both of those Caps and now the Left channel works great, but no subwoofer at all. (my volume dial is working great too this entire time, its the original one) Then I decided to change the LM1973 back to the original one and this didn't change the subwoofer issue. So now I am waiting on an order of (4) 35v 4700uf to replace the bank of 4 capacitors as well as the odd sized one so they will be all new matching cap's. Replacing the lm1973 wasn't a hard task at all, not to come off sounding cocky but you just have to have some fine solder, a steady hand and patience. I used my Hakko's 936L's stock tip(a soldering iron) which isn't a micro tip by any standards. So you can pull it off with a normal soldering iron but have to only use a small portion of the tip, or just invest in a small pinpoint type tip, and or soldering iron if you want to DIY and it will be cake walk if you have experience with soldering. Ill keep everyone updated once I get the new caps in next week. Im crossing my fingers that this will make my sub come alive once more. And also will point people in the right tracks of repairing their IFI's on the cheap.

(radioshack only had the axial type, and I wanted to try to fix it bad so I bought the cap. Later in the day I found a local eletronic supply shop that has the correct ones and they're 1/2 the price as radioshack, 3.25$ vs. 6$)

[dbert]

My thoughts regarding the challenge in replacing the LM1973 were not so much in soldering the new one but desoldering the old.

Will keep an eye out for your update on the capacitor replacement.

[Todd Davis]

Hi friends --

My apologies for not following up with you earlier. I think it was dbert or tc3sean that noticed the blistering capacitors and changed the amp/pre-amp chip.

Yes, those electrolytic caps are a problem on these units I've replaced the same two and from my experience, those are likely the only two. If you can get your hands on an ESR meter you can read the remaining electrolytics and replace as needed.

The loss of the audio now from the sub I predict it was from replacing the IC. I haven't looked lately, but if that's the small surface mount ic on the dock, that's a tricky bugger to remove. You have to be really careful not to damage or lift the traces.

Clean the pads with a flux cleaner and tin (apply a light amount of solder to the) pads before soldering in the replacement ic.

Obviously an oscilloscope would be the best tool to trace the signal to find where it's getting lost. Another really cheap audio probe is a paper clip or metal jeweler's screwdriver. You'll notice a 60hz hum when you tough the metal to the circuit traces. Find the input pins to the power amp IC and work your way back to the dock and then back to the sub where the audio line comes in.

BE SURE THAT IF YOU DO THIS YOU DO NOT GO POKING AROUND THE 110V AC areas. That should be obvious but...

Best of luck -- keep posting!

[tc3sean]

Dbert-I used a heat gun on low and held it over the IC for a few seonds loosening the solder, and then just pulled off the IC. It was pretty easy.

Todd-Thank for for some tips of using an ESR meter, I don't have access to one of those meters but that sounds like a good idea before changing out the caps.

[tc3sean]

damn..what a waste of my ******* money, after replacing all the caps this is how I feel about my speakers