dubai2000 Posted November 19, 2001 Share Posted November 19, 2001 Hello everybody, lately there has been a lot of tube vs. ss discussion going on here. At the moment I am firmly rooted in the vintage Mcintosh ss camp but your posts have made me curious. Over the weekend I was able to borrow a small integrated tube amp which uses four EL 84 (which are apparently quite musical). Although providing less information about the hall/studio in which a recording took place (and that rules it out as a Mc replacement!), I nevertheless liked the sound. Now this amp is manufactured somewhere in China and seems to use Chines tubes. Would different tubes provide a bit more transparency? For some higher price I might also be able to buy a different tube amp using a special version of the 300B tube. This integrated amp is also Chinese. Any comments if the higher investment (and future tube replacements) is worth the financial difference? BTW. both amps are low on wattage, but with Khorns this is no problem Thanks in advance for any response. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted November 20, 2001 Share Posted November 20, 2001 Welcome to the tube game. I too have both SS and tube amps. My tube amps are locally made (Greece) and use Russian tubes. As soon as their time is up (rated at 5000 hours use) I am off to investigate other countries of manufacture, or other manufacturers from Russia I suppose. There seems to be quite a range of prices out there on tubes - I have seen units ranging from $30 or so up to several thousand. I imagine sound quality follows price fairly closely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 20, 2001 Share Posted November 20, 2001 don't you believe it, Stereophile had a very extensive review of many 300B tubes and the differences between the $30 pairs and the $3000 pairs are minor - just like the differences in expensive cables ... ------------------ Cornwalls & Klipsch subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted November 20, 2001 Share Posted November 20, 2001 Ok I have a question. My new to me Fisher 500B needs some new tubes. I have found a place to get them but there are two different brands one is Electro-Harmonix and the other is Phillips JAN (Joint Army Navy). Any difference here or as Colin so aptly put it think speaker cables? ------------------ ...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world... My Home Theater Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 20, 2001 Share Posted November 20, 2001 Sounds like you landed at the Tube Store. Dont buy from there. Seems like that is a poor selection at the very least. What tubes does that beast hold? I am trying to remember... As for the other questions concerning tube amps and tube choices, what is the brand of amplifier you are talking about? I am hoping it is not Kalin which is not very reliable. ASL? Tube choices can make a HUGE difference in the sound and they offer many ways to "tune" your amp or preamp based on your wants. Most of the Sovtek tubes are not that great in my opinion, although they do have a handful of good pieces such as the Sovtek 2A3 and their 5AR4 Rectifier(among others). On a good tube amp, you should be able to hear the hall and recording surroundings even better than most SS amps, especially the SS Mcintosh, which really is not quite up to other SS amp standards. Mcintosh is a bit like the Mercedes of the Audio World in that they have a great reputation as being built like a tank...but they really arent in the high performance category to be honest. I have only heard their SS gear from the 70s and I thought it rather unremarkable and not especially transparent, if a little unsubtle. Their tube gear (from which they got their reputation) is better in my opinion. I would like to hear their stuff again, however, to make a more informed opinion at this stage. 300B is a great tube but VERY expensive compared to others. Actually, if you have the Klipschorn, you might consider the 2A3 which is cheaper and I think a bit more neutral and clear... The 300B is generally a more romantic sounding tube. You are right about the EL-84; it's a great little tube and VERY musical. Depending on the circuit, it can also be very open sounding as well. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted November 20, 2001 Share Posted November 20, 2001 The tubes in question are a 7591A and some 12AX7's. I may replace the 12AT7's too. ------------------ ...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world... My Home Theater Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted November 20, 2001 Author Share Posted November 20, 2001 Thanks everyone for your input. mobile, obviously my impression of Mc ss amps from the 70s differs, but that's another story... When it comes to the tube amps I have been referring to they are sold under the name of Cayin. Previously they carried the name Spark, but I think due to legal difficulties they had to rename their products. On the internet they can be found under: www.cayin.com Here in Germany they have been reviewed by a number of magazines, usually with a positive feedback (which doesn't say a lot to me). Anyway, our local dealer (who is trustworthy) claims that they are quite reliable. The amp with the EL-84 is only a little larger than a CD (!) and can be found on the above website under its name Mini-Houston 1998 (please note: in no way am I trying to promote any brand, it's just the easiest access to tube amps for me!). When I described the sound as 'less spacious' I was perhaps not quite exact enough. What happens compared to my ss gear is that the sound moves forward so that each instrument (and its timbre) becomes very obvious, but somehow the room illusion does not seem to move forward too. Talking to some people about it today they suggested that the size of the transformers used in this amp might be the problem. They think that this really small amp isn't able to control the woofer enough to transmit all the necessary spatial information included in the audio signal. Does that make sense? Apart from this 'inadequacy' the amp sounds musical, fast, perhaps a bit like a small sports car compared to a more heavily powered vehicle. This afternoon I also borrowed an amp manufactured by a company called Arion. It uses four (elderly?) Chinese 300B tubes (Golden Dragon). Unfortunately its internal wiring (?) does not seem to allow the connection of my REL sub (strong hum!) so comparisons with the other tube amp are not quite correct. After an hour or so I it's too early to judge. Yes, a saxophone here and there seems to be smoother than before, but the great change that I expected moving from the EL-84 to the 300B has not yet taken place. Perhaps a few more hours running might change that(?),time (and hopefully my ears) will tell. What I would like to know is what you think about the explanation concerning the EL-84 amp. And if that is so, will any 300B amp with even less power really be an alternative? Thanks again, Wolfram This message has been edited by dubai2000 on 11-20-2001 at 02:48 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted November 21, 2001 Share Posted November 21, 2001 Wolfram, Wish I could understand more German. How much would those amps cost in US dollars? I have been tempted (hard when there is no money after just dropping a bunch on new computer hardware) to get the Sound Valves VT70i. This is and updated/new design of the old Dynaco ST70. EL34 output tubes, 35watts per channel. The Kit is $899 (ouch!!!) They had bought all the old Dynaco stuff when they originally went out of business. All made in the US, except the tubes I'm sure. http://www.soundvalves.com/vta70i.html Have a great Thanksgiving everyone, and for all those from other lands, thanks for the input here. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted November 21, 2001 Author Share Posted November 21, 2001 Marvel, yes, it's a shame that they don't have an English version of their website! The Mini Houston is currently for sale in my hometown for about US $ 925 (but I might be able to cut a deal with our local dealer). Even more tempting is the 743D integrated amp using four 300B tubes... costing the same! (only it's abot a 5hours drive south from where I live!). I can't claim that I've got the $$$, but listening to the 300B last night certainly made me thinking/wishing. After about three hoursn my initial disappointment vanished more and more as the spatial presentation of the music was really getting outstanding. As the sound was also without any harshness, I think I am hooked (except for the financial hurdle). Still, knowing myself I might hit the road on Saturday... Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 21, 2001 Share Posted November 21, 2001 Well, you have come to the great reckoning... You have HEARD the magic of triodes! While the EL-84 tube is a great tube, and surely one of my favorites, it is not a true triode tube like the 300B or the 2A3. The 300B will be more resolving and also have a sense of ease and midrange purity that the EL-84 just wont match. That amazing sense of space and air around the instruments is also a hallmark. And frankly, you wont get this same sound from your Mcintosh gear either... That comment you mention about the harshness plagues almost ALL solid state gear to a certain extent, although some do it FAR better than others. Some can even come quite close. But as of this day, no matter WHAT expense, I have not heard a solid state amp that can reproduce the purity and stunning tone achieved with a true triode. The midrange is just not on the same par. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 22, 2001 Share Posted November 22, 2001 If you have the ultra-efficient Khorns you need to keep looking beyond the 300B and EL84 tubes IMO, because few speakers can truly take advantage of the 2A3 tubes though many reviews with this tube use less efficient speakers; the more efficient the speaker, the more you can enjoy the delicacies of the 2A3. Dont take my word for it, surf the net, ask people at the Tube Audio Asylum forum, etc. ------------------ Cornwalls & Klipsch subs; leather couch & feet up; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted November 22, 2001 Author Share Posted November 22, 2001 Colin, it's not a question of believing, but the availability of tube gear which isn't too far outside my current budget. Concentating on the Cayin products has simply to do with the fact that the prices of both amps have been reduced. The 300B unit is normally in the US $ 2400 regiion, so the above mentioned price stikes me as a bargain. The unit is a dealer's exhibition piece and he claims it hasn't been run for more than 100 hours. I wouldn't mind listening to a 2A3, but I'm afraid there no amp with it around in the neighbourhood and both Cayin deals are of course single chances, once they are gone, I am out of business. mobile, I am still not ready to write off my Mcintosh gear, but even with those old 300B tubes there is some magic in the sound which is certainly addictive. So like I have said before: let's see if the $$$ can be found. Will let you know how things develop. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiming Posted November 22, 2001 Share Posted November 22, 2001 Hi Wolfram, The Cayin amps look surprisingly like the Audio Space amps that are made in Hong Kong. Just attended our local annual hifi show and got this catalogue from the local dealer, Audio 88. This brand is quite well received in Singapore. The Mini-Houston 1998 is real tiny and it cost around US$700 here. Never heard it in detail before so I can't help you there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 22, 2001 Share Posted November 22, 2001 Well, I have said this before in here, but I will say it again. As for amps and speakers, there is almost no reason to buy NEW. The has NEVER been a time more beneficial than now for the buyer or the seller. With great options like AudiogoN, the quality of used gear at great prices is really amazing. You can get top level gear that would have been far from your reach at prices that are reasonable. I have not had a single bad deal via AudiogoN; indeed, I now have my current amp, speakers, and passive preamp all from AudiogoN or eBay. See my highly touted Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondogs above. These amps have received rave reviews and have been compared to "World Class" in amplification. The parts quality is just top notch. If you knew how much I got these for, you would sag! I did a lot of research and ended up winning these in an AudiogoN auction... and for less than I would have paid for the average new ADCOM! You just have to be creative. Most of the gear you see somewhere like AudiogoN is treated with top care from other audioloons that are bitten by the upgrade bug. Before purchase, you do need to feel the owner out and assess his level of knowledge and attention to detail. That being said, these amps will smoke most commercial gear in the $5000-6500 range. Keep your eye out. Do some research. If you want some advice as to what to look for, drop me a mail. All this is NOT out of your reach! kh This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 11-22-2001 at 08:29 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted November 22, 2001 Share Posted November 22, 2001 The Audio SPace products are available in the US. The price is around $1000 for the little Houston. Here is a link to the company in HK: http://www.topintl-audio.com/eng/index.html Love those Moondogs, too! Maybe some day. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted November 22, 2001 Author Share Posted November 22, 2001 Thanks again for the input. Yes, 'our' Cayin brand is certainly called Audio Space in other parts of the globe. The Mini Houston is clearly the same amp and the Cayin 743D seems to be similar to the AS-9813 but according to both websites the Audio Space works in push-pull mode (and has more power) whereas the Cayin is a single-ended triode. Still, does anyone have any experience with Audio Space amps? Wolfram This message has been edited by dubai2000 on 11-22-2001 at 05:36 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted November 23, 2001 Share Posted November 23, 2001 I own and love a pair of KLF 30's. I drive them with an Antique Sound Lab AQ1003DT which is a 30w/ch,(class A) tube amplifier see: http:\\www.divertech.com/ see also: http:\\www.tubehifi.com This amplifier is amazing! I won't bother you with a list of superlatives - You need to listen to it to understand my joy. My AQ unfortunately tanked and my dealer gave me a decent SS amp,(Rega Brio), to use until my Aq came home from the Horse Pistol. That Rega was a joy to listen to and my wife began to question the extra cost of the AQ1003,(It had arrived and 911'd in her abscence while visiting family back east). About 45 seconds after I fired my newly returned AQ up she said "My God that is the first time I've ever heard our speakers!" She went on to comment on the powerful bottom end,the sense of air around the instruments and the overall"You are there" sound of the music. All of the above said: There are many excellent Solid State amps out there and probably a few crappy tube amps - but I definitely prefer my tube amp to any others I have heard. ------------------ It is meet to recall that the Great Green Heron rarely flies upside down in the moonlight - (Foo Ling ca. 1304 BCE) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted November 25, 2001 Author Share Posted November 25, 2001 BEWARE of the tube bug!! Once it bites, you either perish due to withdrawl symptoms or you are forced to part with some of your hard-earned $$$ So what has happened? You can guess, the 300B Cayin amp was too good an offer to miss. I agree with mobile that buying used gear is a great way to obtain equipment which is normally outside one's financial reach. Still, as a technical layman I didn't want to take too many risks and so getting an amp with guarantee was some additional argument. From what I had been told before the price was okay for an integrated amp using 300B tubes. And at least I won't have to get nervous anymore you guys rave about your tube gear. There are 'just' two things (aren't there always?) which are less than perfect. One thing is the strange fact that if you connect all components according to the amp's labelling, you end up with reversed channels! Changing the CD's input put Joe Morello back to the left side of the stage as can be seen on the cover of the Brubeck at Carnegie Hall CD. I presume I could also change the right-left speaker connection. Tomorrow I shall phone up the local distibutor to see what they have to say. (BTW: the sound strikes me as okay and not affected once the connections are they way I've got them now). The second point: the seller suggested that a noticable improvement of sound can be achieved if one changes those two tubes that look after the preamp section. These read 6DJ8/6922 in the manual. Do the two codes refer to the same tube and do you recommend any tube for this purpose? Apparently those JAN Phillips tubes also seem to have a favourable image in this country. Another (more costly?) tube to change is the rectifying tube. This reads 5Z3P. Any input on this one? The 300B (which stike me as still okay) recommended by this seller are the ones manufactured(?) by a company called Cetron (?). He claims they are similar to WE but at a considerably lower price (in the US $250 region each -ouch!) The last final two tubes are 6SN7/6N8P. Also in this case any feedback will be cherished! Sorry for all these 'questions', but I am a newcommer to tubes and I'd rather not be ripped off by any dealer. I also hope that you won't respond by saying that my choice was total b******t. So far I like what I hear and that's after all what matters! Thanks for your interest and patience. Wolfram Latest surviving victim of the dangerous tube bug! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted November 25, 2001 Share Posted November 25, 2001 dubai2000 - Glad to see you are experimenting in the tube domain. I think the vintage Klipsch speakers are really almost MADE for tubes; I have heard no more perfect partnership to be honest. Those that have not properly set up a tube and vintage Klipsch system really dont know what they are missing. A few thoughts about your current questions. As for the channel switch, this, unfortunately, can be quite common in high end gear. Sometimes you will find the polarity switched or the channels. In this case, the simplest way to rectify the problem is to just switch your left and right channel inputs at the CD player if that is your main source. You could opt to switch the speaker cables but I would imagine it is in your inputs. Your tube choice for the input tubes is VERY important and the advice you were given is correct; input tubes can dramatically affect the sound for the better. One quick bit of advice, I would steer away from the JAN Philips 6922 or 6DJ8. I have found these tubes to be rather harsh and not very musical although this also depends on what year. There are certainly other options here that are better. If you are interested, I can look around for you. As for the 5Z3 rectifier, you can get some 5Z3G for anywhere from $4.50 to $15 or so for NOS. Check http://www.tubeworld.com/ . The 6SN7 is a very important tube as well and good NOS can be had for big improvement. You can also sub the 5692 here for a more lush sound. Great 6SN7 tubes can be found at tubeworld.com as well. I happen to like the Sylvania 6SN7WGT "Yellow Lettering" from the 60s. This is a very open, neutral, clean 6SN7. There are other options here as well so drop me a mail if interested. The Cetron 300B is an OK tube and should be fine for now. I have heard these tubes sound VERY good in Cary gear. Others dont like them as much but they should suit you fine while in operation. I am almost positive you will find it VERY hard to return to your Mcintosh amps as they will surely miss the delicacy and life of your 300B triodes. I dont know much about the transformers on those Cayin amps (the output transformer is really the heart of a tube amp and dictates the quality of the sound). Even so, you will surely enjoy this path, especially considering your speakers. I hope you have a fine preamp and good cable as this will also add or detract from the sound (despite what others on here will lead you to believe). Hope you get closer to the music on this journey... kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted November 25, 2001 Author Share Posted November 25, 2001 mobile, thanks a lot for the tube info. I must say that I am already quite impressed by what I hear. Believe it or not but I've had the amp running since the morning and apart from some breakes (preparing meals, taking the dog out etc) I have been enjoying CD after CD (I have not yet connected my turntable to the new amp as I first have to find the correct placement for this beauty (and I am also waiting for my new armboard to get the SME 3012-R fixed onto my Thorens 520S). Yes, any info on the 6DJ8 options would be highly appreciated!!! At the moment the amp has all its original Chinese tubes so a replacement of those affordable ones is certainly the VERY next step (only the 300B have to wait)! Glad to hear that switched channels are not uncommon-though it's the first time I've encountered this phenomenon. As I've said,I've decided to switch the input cables and that's fine. As the amp is an integrated design for once I don't need a separate preamp (saves space!). In terms of cables I agree. When auditioning the amp the seller had first used some QED cable between CD player and amp (speaker cables were by Linn). It sounded not very exciting and I almost decided NOT to buy the amp. When noticing my disappointment, the QED went out and some Kimber went in. Well to be honest, the combo became more agile, but I found that this cable added some kind of harshness which I had also noticed when I first got the Khorns which used the smallest Kimber (brown and black) to connect tweeters and squawkers to the x-over. I quickly replaced this with some cheap Ortofon speaker cable which is at least rather neutral and not shrill at the top. My speaker cables and interconnects are custom made by my local dealer. They suit my ears and have replaced the various Mogami cables used before. Okay, so thanks again for the tube input. I am eagerly waiting for more and... yes, Khorns and tubes ARE pretty magical!!! Wolfram ---------------- The latest survivor of the dangerous tube bug! This message has been edited by dubai2000 on 11-25-2001 at 06:23 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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