Another TT Thread (for your dining and dancing pleasure)

[ColonialHoo]

I promised this thread a while ago, but with the end of the fiscal year and the recent passing of our 14 year old family dog, I havent been here much lately. Now that things are back to a more normal frenzy at work, and starting to settle down emotionally at home, I can find the time to provide some reading material for the forum. Please forgive the length.

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Most of you were aware of Joes tribulations in his attempt (and subsequent success) to upgrade his turntable set-up, first toward a Teres, and finally with a Champion level 2.

Here is the tangent to that story. I bought Joes Basis from him at the beginning of his upgrade ordeal.

A little back story- I have a finished basement (all mine in a house full of girls), and I have been focusing on putting together a decent 2-channel system for about a year now. In March, I fell into a pair of unmolested 75 Khorns (at a Richmond Klipsch dealer no less). Wow, nice start. My 86 KG2s took a back seat. About that time, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Gary posted that his Thorens was still available. In early April I headed to Maryland, met two wonderful people, and left with Garys Thorens and a nice inventory of vinyl (to supplement my own). Somehow, those gorgeous 72 Zebrawood Decorator Heresies found their way into my car as well. Next on the list was tubes. Mike Lindsey was getting rid of his Scott 299, and after a trip past Craigs workbench, it landed in my basement in late May.

What a great set-up for the Khorns - tubes and a beautiful Thorens for much less than I had expected to spend on a starter rig. BUT

I had heard Garys basement system when I was up in MD, and I was totally blown away by the sound. Not only the VRDs and the BBX w/Cream, but his Basis 2001 was phenomenal. I already had the monoblocs and the BBX on my ultimate wish list (from what I was reading here), but now I had to add a Basis to that list.

Back at home, I was perfectly happy with the sound I was getting from my set-up. The Thorens, although old, had a wonderful sound, and the Scott provided perfect, very clean tube power to the Khorns. Then Joe entered the picture. He was in a hurry to raise a bit of money for his tt upgrade, and he was selling his Basis 1400 with a modded RB300 arm (and a Grado Reference Sonata cart). Hmm, a Basis local enough for a pick-up, and at a very good price. After contemplating for about ten minutes and making a phone call or two for support, I jumped.

Took a few weeks before I was able to make it up to DC to pick it up, but I was in no hurry. I had a really nice Thorens downstairs at home.

Met Joe in the parking lot of his workplace VERY early one morning as he was getting off night shift, and I picked up a large box and a plexi dust cover (thanks, Thebes). After my work related obligations were fulfilled, I headed home.

That night, as I was unpacking the turntable, I realized why Joe was upset with the packing job he had received from the audio expert who sold him the champion. Joe had packed up the Basis to withstand a cross-country trip with the UPS goons. All components had been cleaned up, wrapped up and packed with the utmost care. It was nice that each component was packed in its original box.

Not wanting to mess anything up, I carefully read all the documentation that Joe gave to me (this was a real feat I am an engineer, and we usually only read the instructions after we screw up). With a perpetual honey-do list (I do need to keep the wife happy), it took a few days before I was able to spend enough time downstairs to completely assemble the Basis.

Wow, what a beautiful machine. The only thing missing were mounting screws for the Sonata. No big deal. I called Grado, and they sent me two sets of screws for the cart. I spent the next few days (an hour or two at a time) getting the cart and arm tweaked. Once I got it where I thought it was right, I pulled out a few of my favorite reference albums: Crime of the Century, Wish You Were Here, and an old Sonny Stitt album I love (Blues For Duke). Then I sat down.

Holy Cow! Clear and clean top to bottom with a very prominent midrange. The soundstage really opened up more than I expected it would. Once again, I heard things I had not noticed before on these albums. Next were a few Blue Note re-issues. They seemed to put me smack dab in the middle of the stage. I can almost hear the breathing patterns on the woodwinds, and I can feel the finger slides on the bass. The cymbals are just so clear its like they are 2 feet in front of me.

I am not an audio expert by any means, but I can hear a pretty decent difference between the Basis and the Thorens. I assume the cartridge has a lot to do with it (a Reference Sonata on the Basis and a Grado green on the Thorens), but things are a bit cleaner and I do hear a lot more silence (if that makes sense) through the Basis. I wont get rid of the Thorens, though. It is too nice a table, and it will go very well in my second system once that gets set up.

Im done for now. Its time to stop, sit back and listen to some music. I recently picked up a handful of Blue Note re-issues (sealed), so I have a good stack to enjoy. I will also get reacquainted with some older rock favorites of mine. The VRDs and the BBX are still on my list, but they will both have to wait while my audio $ stash rebuilds.

In the doghouse again, but one more step taken on the long journey toward my ultimate system.

Thanks, Joe. I hope you are enjoying your Champion as much as I am enjoying my new Basis.

[scott0527]

Well I for one can't get enough of turntable threads. It's really something once you find a nice vinyl set up isn't it? Cartridges really do seem to play an important role as you climb the cost ladder.

Gary's Thorens was a TD 165 I believe. Not their best piece of engineering. I don't know if they were cost cutting or what but the inner platter of that model being composite just doesn't seem to do things as good as their old cast aluminum model. The whole bearing/platter arrangement was changed, not for the better. I recently pulled out a 165 and set it up next to a 160 since it had been a while since I had heard either of them. But given that I often see them sell for less than $100, they're a fantastic bargain. They certainly aren't going to hurt your vinyl and you can still get a good feel for how nice reocrds can sound.

Congratulations on the Basis, they seem to be doing things right as people really have great things to say about them

[maxg]

I kinda like the TT threads too (no!!! - yes, honestly, who would have guessed).

Be interesting to see whether you do ever venture into the Clearaudio route or if you end up sticking in the Basis family. There are examples on the forum of both routes - so you will have company whichever way you go.

As for Clearaudio's themselves - one day we can have a thread relating to the benefits or otherwise of a Champion level 2 Vs. a Master Solution.

Again we have forum members that have followed each of the above routes - could be interesting as to the why's and wherefore's.

[3dzapper]

Sounds like the perfect set up in your man cave Hoo. src="http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/images/smilies/gif/tongue.gif" border=0 unselectable="on" editorid="vB_Editor_001">

How come nobody does a thread about a Villa Blue Note Bellagio?[]

Rick

[ColonialHoo]

Scott -

You are correct. It is a TD-165. And it was a great bargain (Thanks again, Gary). I brought it home (with the Grado green and abt 200 albums) for $200. I had no complaints with it when I got it set up. It really sounded pretty nice.

I set up my first real system in the mid '80s with KG2s, a Yamaha A-510 and a B&O RX (or RX2). After the kids tore up the RX (in the mid to late '90s), I was able to pick up a Beogram 5000 pretty cheap. Never liked it as much as the RX, though, even though it had a MMC2 cart. Still have the Beogram - thinking of getting rid of it on ePay.

I happen to like the simplicity of the Thorens. It's a very clean looking table. And for what they are, Thorens tables all seem to be good bargains.

Here's the Thorens (if it works).

Chuck

[ColonialHoo]

And here's the new baby.

Chuck

[dbflash]

Very nice read.

It sounds like it worked out for you.

I hope you enjoy your system for many years.

Danny

[colterphoto1]

tsk tsk, all those high tech materials and the cartridge is made of WOOD? what's that all about?

[joessportster]

well well, chuck you finally got that thing all set up, (bout time man)[], very happy to hear you are enjoying the differances it offers above the thorens i used to have a thorens also but went to a dual then the basis etc...etc...etc..., i finally got my rig set up as well made the granite shelf, made a new armboard, installed the riggle vtaff, had a machine shop fabricate me a record weight fashioned after the basis clamp,(and they did a damb fine job) and the list never ends now im working on temporary shelving for the neare 8,000 albums i have here. then i get the task of paring down to a favorite 500 or so and the rest will be dealt with accordingly. i made the same statement you just did also "im happy with the system now, no upgrades for awhile" [A], of course i didnt really mean it!!!!!!!!! anyway glad you are happy with the table set back and enjoy the music.........

Joe

[ColonialHoo]

Thanks, Joe.

I have had it set up for a couple weeks now, just didn't have time to put together a worthwhile post until now. I do love this TT. Looks really sharp, and sounds as nice as it looks.

I plan to have a friend of mine machine a nice little stainless collar for me to support the Rega vertically. That way the rear setscrew will have a bit less work to do.

BTW, looks like you need to change your signature line.

Chuck

[dubai2000]

Max,

and then there are some the Thorens guys around here as well....[]. The 165 is certainly not their prime model (but perhaps with a different arm and cart even this TT might sound better than just decent [].

Chuck,

the Basis looks nice indeed. but even this can be improved on.....again I would look for a different arm....being not much of a Rega fan myself, or I'd consider rewiring it and getting at least an on-the-fly VTA adjustment tool!

Wolfram

[ColonialHoo]

Wolfram -

The Rega is modded with the incognito wiring, so I won't touch that any further. And if the collar works well, I'll just have my buddy make a set of them with varying heights. I know it's not perfect, but it should do the trick.

My logical progression from here will be a Vector III on this table and then a new table for the Vector. At that point, I would then pass along this rig as it stands. That's down the line, though, unless something pops up that I can't pass up (just like this one did). I need to work on the power end of things first.

Eventually, VRDs and a BBX cream will replace the Scott, and I also plan to replace the stock AAs in the Khorns (probably with ALKs). A tube CD player needs to fall in there somewhere as well. Ah, priorities. After all, it's just money (of which I don't have enough).

At least it's nice to have a plan.

Chuck

[garymd]

Congrats Chuck! The new setup looks great and I'm sure it sounds even better.

No, the 165 wasn't Thorens best model but it certainly didn't sound too bad when I had it. Pretty decent as a matter of fact! It trounces quite a few other tables in the same price range.

We missed you tonight Chuck. I hope you can make it up the next time we get together. Glad you now have time to sit back and enjoy the tunes.

[Parrot]

Sorry about your dog, Chuck.

[Travis In Austin]

Joe,

Let me know when you need me to fly to PA to pick up those 7500 lps. Next weekend ok?

Travis

[ChrisK]

I kinda like the TT threads too (no!!! - yes, honestly, who would have guessed).

Be interesting to see whether you do ever venture into the Clearaudio route or if you end up sticking in the Basis family. There are examples on the forum of both routes - so you will have company whichever way you go.

As for Clearaudio's themselves - one day we can have a thread relating to the benefits or otherwise of a Champion level 2 Vs. a Master Solution.

Again we have forum members that have followed each of the above routes - could be interesting as to the why's and wherefore's.

Max,

I'm very interested in your thoughts regarding Champion 2 vs Master Solution. I currently have a basic champion and am considering an upgrade. My good buddy Josh recently went from Basic to Level 2 after upgrading his cartridge/arm combo. His comments to me seemed to say the turntable upgrade was at least as dramatic as was the cart/arm change.

A couple of thoughts -

1. I don't think I'll ever use 2 arms.

2. I still need to consider WAF. The solution looks a little more techno-contraptiony than does the Champion...at least I believe my wife might think as such...

What's your take (sonics and otherwise)?

Thanks,

Chris

[lwhaples]

Congrats Chuck! Looks sweet,Thanks for taking the time on a good write up.

Larry

[joessportster]

travis, i will certainly let you know one question though how will you get 7500 albums on an airplane[]

i just finished putting all but 500 or so on the shelves, each in a poly sleeve and it only took up 48 feet of shelving, this of course does not include all the box sets of which there are near 50, and 300 or so 10 inch 33's, and i have no idea how many old 78's that are mostly damaged goods some time in the near future i will start lkisting 10 or so at a time here on the forum............

and chuck yes i tried to change the profile but it didnt take for what ever reason, i will try again as i dont want to infringe on your table any longer[]......................Joe

[maxg]

I kinda like the TT threads too (no!!! - yes, honestly, who would have guessed).

Be interesting to see whether you do ever venture into the Clearaudio route or if you end up sticking in the Basis family. There are examples on the forum of both routes - so you will have company whichever way you go.

As for Clearaudio's themselves - one day we can have a thread relating to the benefits or otherwise of a Champion level 2 Vs. a Master Solution.

Again we have forum members that have followed each of the above routes - could be interesting as to the why's and wherefore's.

Max,

I'm very interested in your thoughts regarding Champion 2 vs Master Solution. I currently have a basic champion and am considering an upgrade. My good buddy Josh recently went from Basic to Level 2 after upgrading his cartridge/arm combo. His comments to me seemed to say the turntable upgrade was at least as dramatic as was the cart/arm change.

A couple of thoughts -

1. I don't think I'll ever use 2 arms.

2. I still need to consider WAF. The solution looks a little more techno-contraptiony than does the Champion...at least I believe my wife might think as such...

What's your take (sonics and otherwise)?

Thanks,

Chris

OK well the ability to use more than one arm is certainly an immediate difference between the Champion (which can't) and the Solution series (which actually take up to 3).

Actually I am not 100% sure you can fit the Clearaudio Linear tracking arms to a champion at all - this might be another difference. Certainly never seen it done.

If you are sure it is never going to be an issue - then lets move along.

Looks are certainly another major driving factor for many in choosing a TT - but there is more than merely a difference of appearance behind the 2 ranges.

In essence the variation is in the design principle behind the plinth. The Champion 2 uses the additional mass approach - meaning that the higher the mass of the plinth the less the effect from external vibration.

The Solution series uses a quite different philosophy. That is that a plinth is merely a source of vibration whatever you do with it and however massive it gets. Therefore - make the mass of the platter as low as possible to minimize its effect on the spinning platter.

For this reason you will notice that the Champion 2 is actually a far more massive table than the Master Solution - or even the Maximum Solution - including its 3 motors.

This leads us neatly into the 4th distinction I would draw between the 2 tables.

The Champion 2 is the highest level of the Champion range. It probably equates, give or take, with the Master solution.

However, the Master Solution is merely a step along the solution path. Currently this culminates in the Maximum Solution - with 3 motors, a doubled bass and the speed controller.

Now it might be that you are not a beleiver in the 3 motor principle - many are not, but this does represent the top of the range with only the Master Reference being a better table.

We could discuss the 3 motor option at length if you like - there are many approaches to optimizing a belt drive unit. As with each of them there are pros and cons.

My own opinion is that the 3 motor design probably is about as good as it gets - but it strains the wallet if not the ear.

So from the above you can see my own logic in choosing the Master Solution:

Linear Tracking arm - plus upto 2 more if and when I want.

Appearance - I like it - looks like something NASA would make.

Design philosophy - I want mass in the platter - not the plinth.

Upgradabilty - to the Maximum Solution (50th Birthday perhaps?)

That's about it for now - save for that discussion on the 3 motor thing.

[Travis In Austin]

travis, i will certainly let you know one question though how will you get 7500 albums on an airplane[]

i just finished putting all but 500 or so on the shelves, each in a poly sleeve and it only took up 48 feet of shelving, this of course does not include all the box sets of which there are near 50, and 300 or so 10 inch 33's, and i have no idea how many old 78's that are mostly damaged goods some time in the near future i will start lkisting 10 or so at a time here on the forum............

and chuck yes i tried to change the profile but it didnt take for what ever reason, i will try again as i dont want to infringe on your table any longer[]......................Joe

I would fly in, rent a Ryder, and then take easy drive back home trying to hit as many people as I can on the way back, Colter, etc. to dump some off on others. Let me know if you want to get rid of all of them in one fell swoop.

Travis