Horatio Posted October 23, 2006 Author Share Posted October 23, 2006 Boom3 got it! The earlier comment on the EV Patrician was right in line with my opening statement: the EV Patrician could also be viewed as a Khorn mod'ed out with three exponential horns to do the midbass on up. I think a really fun set up would be a Khorn (bass only) sitting away in the corner (just about everyone has at least ONE corner that would work, especially if the corner didn't impact the listening arrangement- seems to me that this is the common situation, and not the exceptional one required to run classic Klipshorn cornerhorn systems), and two, call them satellites, but they'd be bigger than the usual satellites, units that use perhaps equalized drivers to do the rest. Probably can get away with two-ways, here. I have been away from this thread since first posting it, and have appreciated the commentary. Thanks! On the mid-bass problem: anyone here have experience with the Emilar driver that was set up for mid-bass? I have a musician friend who also does pro sound, and he waxes raphsodic about the old Emilar what was it, EC600? You know the story: owned a set, sold them, and later regretted it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 If I could throw another concept out there... Most studios are using a single or pair of 15" direct radiating subwoofers that often work below the 80-150Hz range (depending on the sats and location and number of subs being used)...One of the things I've learned from doing pro sound is that the sound signature of the sound system needs to become part of the music. So in the case of bass guitar, for example, it is extremely hard to mic the bass guitar cabinet and get a good sound out in the house - especially when you're driving the PA hard. But take the direct-out from the bass cabinet (the same signal he's feeding his bass guitar amp) and you end up with the cleanest fattest bass ever. And I'm fairly confident that it's not the result of poor mic'ing technique with the first method. Part of the signature fat bass guitar sound is the distortion of his 15",18" woofers in his cabinet. When you've got similar 15" drivers on your PA, you are effectively achieving a similar type of distortion. When you mic the cab and then amplify it again, you're doubling up on the amount of distortion and it's too much - making it sound like crap. To tie that back in, the recording engineer is hearing the signature distortion of his subwoofer in his studio, but the signal that ends up on the recording is the signal being fed to his subwoofers, not the signal he's hearing. When we take this signal and throw it on a bass horn, you've no longer got as much cone-excursion, not to mention some filtering of the higher harmonic distortions. Bass guitars just don't sound right on bass horns unless the recording was monitored on bass horns - and then holy fricken crap is it awesome. Anyways, this is my theory while I await the opportunity to hear the Jubilees with a rocking subwoofer. It's hard to tell if the issue is lack of low frequency extension or lack of "distortion" to make the instruments sound the way they're supposed to. I too would like to know more info about how a driver performs below the cutoff of the horn. One of these days I'll get around to making a bass horn and then hopefully by then I'll have equipment that can measure distortion too. I think the future in sound system design will not be perfecting the toplogies, but rather tweaking the topologies such that their distortions are pleasing / unnoticeable. Similar to the ideas going into MP3 encoding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Bass guitars just don't sound right on bass horns unless the recording was monitored on bass horns Normally you're spot on, but sometimes you slip and say something incomprehensible. "Cold-hearted orb that rules the night Removes the colors from our sight Red is grey and yellow white And we decide which is right And which is an illusion?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horatio Posted October 23, 2006 Author Share Posted October 23, 2006 That's an interesting point- I am unfamiliar with pro recording techniques, and I would suppose that the recording made from the direct-outs would sound different on a horn system instead of a direct radiator. It would probably sound ALOT different. I am not a musician, but certainly one can find several makes and models of woofers, all directed at guitar amp applications, extolled for the various sound attributes each has. One is led to believe that the driver is in control of the specific kind of 'great sound' one gets. This must inevitably impact recording practice. Is it the low frequency extension or the lack of distortion, or, is it a specific type of distortion that the Khorns exhibit in the mid-bass? I don't know...it's just that the comments about 'thwack', punchiness, or, my personal favorite: 'woody vocals' persist about the Khorn's sound in this part of the range. On the matter of tweaking the distortions: this is why I am suggesting that our approach must neccessarily include signal processors in the loop, to equalize drivers for specific horn geometries, to smooth response, etc., etc....is this always going to be considered a bad thing, or will it just persist among purists? Another way of seeing this: we play around and play around and PLAY AROUND with passive crossovers....are we not doing the same thing (fiddling the acoustic signature)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 It has been my limited experience that doing things to "flatten" a response is a theoretical goal. Yes, this is optimal from a design standpoint and out of principle is what to shoot for. However, this doesn't necessarily sound better. I'm sure some of the Klipsch Synergy series has a great flat response but has no comparison to listening to a first order network on a 70's Corwall with peaks all over the place. Therefore, tinkering with filters can have an impact on accuracy, sonic signature, and "corrections of imperfections" in a horn. If you ask me.....tinkering is necessary as what actually sounds the best may have nothing to do with the best "theoretical or calculated" goal. Sometimes, you gotta just leave those "imperfections" alone. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 .it's just that the comments about 'thwack', punchiness, or, my personal favorite: 'woody vocals' persist about the Khorn's sound in this part of the range. Thwack ......is definitely a Horn thing ..'cause Only a horn loaded mid can make that Snare ...PoP ...!!! On the matter of tweaking the distortions: this is why I am suggesting that our approach must neccessarily include signal processors in the loop, to equalize drivers for specific horn geometries, to smooth response, etc., etc....is this always going to be considered a bad thing, or will it just persist among purists? Another way of seeing this: we play around and play around and PLAY AROUND with passive crossovers....are we not doing the same thing (fiddling the acoustic signature)? I am not afraid to run a digital Eq, and digital X-Over..... tweaking a passive crossover is the same as rolling tubes ... they're both EQ, admit it, or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Bass guitars just don't sound right on bass horns unless the recording was monitored on bass horns Normally you're spot on, but sometimes you slip and say something incomprehensible. [] Fine, I'm yet to hear bass guitars sound "right" on bass horns - except the few recordings I've listened to that explicitly stated they were mixed with fully hornloaded speakers. I won't say it's impossible though - it all depends on how good the sound engineer is at referencing the mix and ignoring the flaws in his own playback chain. I can think of a lot of great music that sounds like crap on khorns, but totally shines on cornwalls... Now if you're talking drums - horns are the only way to go. Even if it's recorded poorly. The transient response on drums is fricken insane, the 30dB peaks Duke is always referring to are on the conservative side. (My favorite drum sound is a tribal drum being hit by a hand that has a 60dB transient). I think a lot of the "boxy" comments about the khorn have more to do with its crappy frequency response though...it's practically shaped like a bell-curve. The only time I've found the khorn to be acceptable for listening has been in very small rooms where the room gain dramatically boosts the failing low frequency extension - bringing it back to something that's much closer to flat. Another issue I never see brought up is the diffraction at the bass-horn opening. The "bubble" of sound that comes out is going to get splattered to crap with those sharp angles (as Roy likes to call it). It'll be similar to the turbulence you see with a wave in water when it encounters a sharp turn. I think they even mention this in the JAES article. time to run to a meeting - sorry for the choppy writing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Khorns are subjected to this unfounded complaining more than others exactly because they do rely completely on the room to propagate correctly. On the subject of EQ, I eschew anything in the signal path that doesn't need to be there. In the case of the complainers, yes - by all means, EQ the daylights out of it, if it will SHUT YOU UP! Sheesh! Do not be futher crappin' on my horn gig! DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boom3 Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 I heard a Patrician briefly long ago, so I don't trust my memory of it. I'd love to try a Patrician bass bin. The other components it used are no longer SOTA, especially that weird folded midrange that used two drivers feeding mailing tubes. I am wondering if anyone has built a Patrician bass bin, or has plans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 The transient response on drums is fricken insane, the 30 dB peaks Duke is always referring to are on the conservative side. (My favorite drum sound is a tribal drum being hit by a hand that has a 60dB transient). .. Noooooo .... Who ...... it's 50 dB........ my system's gotta have that Snare Drum ....Thwack ......!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 If I could throw another concept out there...Most studios are using a single or pair of 15" direct radiating subwoofers that often work below the 80-150Hz range (depending on the sats and location and number of subs being used)...One of the things I've learned from hey doc, what ever happened to horn loaded sub brain track? blueberry roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 It's still on the back of my mind...I just need the time and money to sit down and quantify what I'm hearing. I'm hoping that it's just the fast roll-off on the low-end (seems every hornloaded bass bin I've heard is dropping off by 40Hz or so). Or maybe I just need to listen to it louder [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Mine start rolling hard at 40, but mine aren't pushed into the corners all the way (false corners/pulled out). Fine, I'm yet to hear bass guitars sound "right" on bass horns ...I can think of a lot of great music that sounds like crap on khorns, but totally shines on cornwalls. I guess you're not talking about acoustic bass, because that sounds just like it should to me. Electric bass doesn't sound as fat and loose as most are used to hearing it, but is tight with good definition. I can follow the bass lines with all of my music, something I couldn't do with most speakers I've owned in the past. If it sounds like crap through a set of Klipschorns, it will sound just as bad or worse through a set of Cornwalls -- unless there is an issue with the Klipschorns electrically or with set up. I've spent plent of time with the Cornwall, and I have a really rough time trying to relate to what you're saying. Aren't there acoustic summing issues when direct radiators are run with horns that are impossible to resolve? I've heard this more than once -- any truth to it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 " I am not afraid to run a digital Eq, and digital X-Over..... tweaking a passive crossover is the same as rolling tubes ... they're both EQ, admit it, or not" Ditto to what Duke said! And things like rolling tubes, swapping wires...etc..etc is far more random then what some good processing can do for you. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Electric bass doesn't sound as fat and loose as most are used to hearing it, but is tight with good definition. Now how do you quantify that? Like what's the difference between fat and tight? And how do you know when the speaker should be making the guitar "fat" or "tight"? If the recording calls for fat and the speaker doesn't deliver fat, then there is something wrong - not every sound in the world needs to be described as "tight" to be considered high fidelity. Sorry for the rant, I'm just a big fan of fat bass - which I can hear all the time by stepping on the stage...I'm totally seeking that sound in the home, but I'm yet to hear it (with any topology). Aren't there acoustic summing issues when direct radiators are run with horns that are impossible to resolve? I've heard this more than once -- any truth to it? What exactly is an acoustic summing issue? And once defined, how would you determine your compromise tree? Acoustic summing to me deals with the coverage patterns of large format sound reinforcement that are using multiple speakers to achieve the coverage and SPL's needed for a large sweet spot. They also happen to almost always use a combination of horns and direct-radiators...and since these issues are much less of a concern in the home, I would wager that it's more of a non-issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Mike is right on the money! How do you "know" what its supposed to sound like? That is a nasty little problem we all have to deal with. I think about it alot. Here's my opinion on the subject: We have to judge it based on the OTHER elements of the response, how well the ambience is presented, other instruments (drums, piano). If THEY are presented in an acceptably "realistic" manner, it can be ASSUMED that the bass is also being presented as "accurately" as the others. Naturally, you wouldn't compare cymbals with bass lines, but if the soundstage is presented in an acceptable manner, both the cymbals and the bass will take its appropriate place in the overall soundstage. This includes not being exagerated (or sticking out) from the whole, as well as not being covered or suppressed, etc. Accuracy is also related to being stable in the soundstage, in position and depth, etc. It is, at best, an estimation of accuracy. We make it daily. But we can never be "sure". DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Yes, there is a VitaVox that looks similar to the jub. However, I don't think I could ever find those particular plans. I have debated the jbl scoopes a few times. The VOTTS are freakin Huge. Typically if I build it, I have to keep in mind that I would have to be able to sell it one day or find room in my house. This last venture was an attempt to get something with about the same footprint and sound as good or better than the dbb's. Of course....many egged me on to make the jub. Heaven sake......I hope I keep all my fingers. ........."Heaven sake......I hope I keep all my fingers"........... Ahummm, Better hope your underwriter isn't a forum member.[^o)] tc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 I'm just a big fan of fat bass - OK ... Who ...... now we gotta Quantify .." Fat Bass" ... is it ... Stanley Clarke ....?? ..clean, tight, maybe half fed thru the Board........... or Felix Pappalardi's massively overdriven Sunn B200s., ...bellowing, .....like a cow in heat........??? hint..for you Kid's ....think " Mountain ' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Khorns are subjected to this unfounded complaining more than others exactly because they do rely completely on the room to propagate correctly. On the subject of EQ, I eschew anything in the signal path that doesn't need to be there. In the case of the complainers, yes - by all means, EQ the daylights out of it, if it will SHUT YOU UP! Sheesh! Do not be futher crappin' on my horn gig! DM I believe PWK called them "buzz boxes". However, EQ capabilities are / should be much better today than they were when he made that statement. IMHO, loudspeaker design criteria should consist of building a unit that requires NO subwoofer and NO EQ. Build all of it in one box. That should be the quest of a designer. IMHO As always, I am speaking of a two or three channel array. I gots ta get the first two right before I consider 5,7,10 channels or more. Not to dis the HT guys, I just haven't been there yet. Regards, Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 I'm just a big fan of fat bass - OK ... Who ...... now we gotta Quantify .." Fat Bass" ... is it ... Stanley Clarke ....?? ..clean, maybe half fed thru the Board........... or Felix Pappalardi's massively overdriven Sunn B200s., ...bellowing, .....like a cow in heat........??? hint..for you Kid's ....think " Mountain ' Ohooooo. Love the old Sunn's driven at Warp 8. Mountain? All I can remember is the cow bell and West's guitar comming in![] PS Edit: ...."Felix Pappalardi's"..... Young Rascals.......?????? tc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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