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Sound&Vision Test Bench JLAudio Fathom and Klipsch RT12d


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klipschter1,

Wait a minute hold the horses,the RT-12d does very well,I compared it to probably the strongest contender in the compact sub segment.The Seismic 12 is no joke and can go deep as well as play loud with ease.The Seismic was louder by a small measure,not a some big gain in loudness.And I said the RT-12d will be a safer bet as it will integrate better(for the common user).I can fine tune any sub to make it blend,with the outboard gizmos I have,so the Seismic 12 winns,more compact and no hit of performance.

The JL f133,simply a killer compact(yes it is very compact)subwoofer,at 130lbs for such a smallish cabinet it is one solid chunk.I tell ya people I will post pics of subs and take higher rez pics of the JL f113 so you can see its beauty(it is a product to behold),quality is a few classes above both the Seismic 12 and the RT-12t(and those two are not what I would call cheapies).

The only(ONLY)subwoofer I own that matches the overall quality is the Aerial SW12,a bit larger,weighs about the same.This time vented,dare I say underported(and tuned quite low).I will have to make an A/B test here too. Velodyne's HGS/DD subs are not up to the same level of parts quality,not even close!! And they range up to $5000,taking the DD12 it retails no less than the f113.So you get the picture.

I simply cannot stress enough,JL Audio has a real jewel of a sub here,both on paper and in use,as well as...static display.Total package you do not see often.

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kramskoi,

I will run a good few tests to see just how linear the JL is in my small(very small,borders on tiny) and large rooms.The small room has an almost too good to be true gain where subs even as tiny as the Sunfire D8 will make seasoned "subphiles" jaw drop.In the large room a D8 is...nearly useless to me. So the gain or loss if you will of output thanks to room gain is more than 3dB,in fact I would go as far as to say there is with ease over 8-9dB of gain in the tiny room for subs.You can make a 5" woofer sound potent in there! When I had my Velo HGS18 in ther...amazing.Revel B15...jaw crushing.The impact is phenomenal,up to volumes your hearing fears.

Sealed subs always work(integrate) better in my smallish room,and all sealed so far work like a charm.In the larger room ported make a better or at least as good match.

Loading a small space is very easy,and little is needed to presurize it to the point of feeling the air being oh so slightly compressed,where in the large room you need a whooper of a sub working in overtime to even start creating some compression.

Just some observations.

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Picture the corner of a room, but the walls of that corner stretch on forever (basically meaning there is no room).

Or cut a sphere in half, 3 times. Half-Space would be like digging a hole and putting the sub in the ground firing straight up. Quarter-Space would be like rotating the sub 45 degrees and putting an infinitely long wall beside the sub. Eighth-Space would just be another long wall perpendicular to that wall and the ground.

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Ok enough of this little hijacking kids,back to the subject JL Audio. Will have a pletora of pics to showcase this gem soon.

You have to see this unit,a work of industrial art. In the finish/overall quality departament it is on a equal level as the Wilson WatchDog ! Not some cardboard shoe box made in the third world.

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That is simply a matter of gain, The RT-12 would slaughter the RF-83's down low when cranked up.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Furthermore tests are all relative, so SPL numbers are more or less meaningless unless the same person tested them in the same exact way, and the test was not biased. Such things are rarely done because they are not easy to do. I trust Tom, he has been doing it longer than most anyone.

The RT12 is a pretty good step up from the old RSW designs which had a lot of complications with deep bass due to an amplification issue. The RT12 can best an RSW-15 at 20hz by some asinine figure like 10dB or so. I think its also important to point out that the RT12 is not a 12" driver, Its a 13 and I'm not surprised it can take the sealed F12 in a pissing contest.

I guess that begs the question, is the RT10 really an 11? Yes it is.

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That is simply a matter of gain, The RT-12 would slaughter the RF-83's down low when cranked up.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Furthermore tests are all relative, so SPL numbers are more or less meaningless unless the same person tested them in the same exact way, and the test was not biased. Such things are rarely done because they are not easy to do. I trust Tom, he has been doing it longer than most anyone.

The RT12 is a pretty good step up from the old RSW designs which had a lot of complications with deep bass due to an amplification issue. The RT12 can best an RSW-15 at 20hz by some asinine figure like 10dB or so.  I think its also important to point out that the RT12 is not a 12" driver, Its a 13 and I'm not surprised it can take the sealed F12 in a pissing contest.

I guess that begs the question, is the RT10 really an 11? Yes it is.

OneTooMany touches on what I took away from Nousaine's test, which was that the RT12D compares very favorably with the JL Fathom when tested in essentially the same environment. Nousaine has tested subs for many years in the car audio arena, and of course has taken a lot of heat in that highly competitive industry when a favorite sub didn't test to its following's expectations. So I imagine he is careful to test in a way that is defensible, and repeatable. There is a thread in the AV forum where Manville Smith of JL very respectfully (as is characteristic for him personally as well as the JL organization) indicates JL's surprise with his results. They indicate they would revisit their testing an make known their results and methodology, probably as indicated a few responses above. The problem to a degree is that subs are so interactive with their environment, even dependent on it. Couple this with the fact that there is no industry standard testing, and comparison is difficult. Reputable manufacturers make data available, as well as their methods, so that within that context you can hopefully interpolate how the sub will behave in your application. Less reputable manufacturers skew and present data that is questionable at best. I too trust Tom and am confident that he doesn't bring any deliberate bias to the table. Variations from other posted data is likely attributable to differences in environment, and in testing methodology.

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I've always loved the sound of JL Audio. My brother has a full JL system in his car and its amazing. I wonder how the Gotham g213 will sound. They used to include the price of the g213 online and it was in the neighborhood of 7500$.

Also I was wondering on which specific driver they are using in the fathom and gotham series. Are they just using the mobile series such as a 13w6v2 or a 13w7 in a sealed enclosure? I tried downloading the pdf's to check on that and they were not available.

I looked into it a bit more under their driver technologies and it looks like they are just the mobile series.

Any clues?

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Well folks each day I visit my Klipsch/JL Audio/Paradigm dealer and ask "IS IT THERE YET? IS IT HERE YET? "

I know my JL Audio f113 is comming,and Gotham will follow as it comes out and I free some space. [:D]

In the meantime I anounce my upcoming tower of RT power,RT-10d stacked on the RT-12d,in the opposite corner of the RSW triple stack. [:D]

The madness has hit again!

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the fathom and gotham series, iirc, are using enhanced versions of the 13w7, called the HTW7...looks like a beefier magnet/coil/surround implementation...i think it's excursion capability has been enhanced also...the envelope is supposedly 3.6 - 4" peak to peak...how much of that is "linear" is another matter (normal 13w7's are 32mm xmax)...perhaps they've raised the sensitivity of the driver also (from 86 dB)...also, the driver used in the fathom is different from the one used in the gotham...or so it is stated...

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The automotive drivers and home theatre drivers are different slightly, and each is purpose-built as detailed here:

http://home.jlaudio.com/multimedia_pages.php?page_id=15#

(click on Driver Technology)

Also interesting excursion video of 2" then 4". :o

BTW, I think JL's presentation of their product on the site is exemplary.

I would like to see Klipsch provide a more direct connection with its engineering and R&D. Many who attended the Pilgrimmage came away with a greater appreciation for the engineering, design, and manufacturing that goes into the product. There is no reason why this opportunity cannot be afforded virtually to all customers in such a manner. Klipsch engineering, design, and development is world class in every way. I don't understand why it is kept in the "back room". Rather I think it would be an effective tool, along with continued emphasis on heritage, which I think Klipsch does very well, and which many speaker manufacturers these days lack. FWIW.

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Klipsch has improved,the designs get more and more refined(the more mass market,non Heritage speakers that is),the subs improve,from the peaky pre KSW subs to the flat and refined RT series.

Klipsch has a very competent design team.

though they lost one of the best.......

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