The Doctor is IN

[colterphoto1]

Hi gang, Dr. Who came over to my place yesterday afternoon. He downloaded the free fequency analyser software which we put on my laptop and set up in the hearth roon. IndyKlipschFan (Roger) showed up just a bit later and we went through some preliminary tests with Doc's calibrated mic and the software.

We checked my LSBR's in their original postions, with and without the THX subs. Pretty jagged response when you include the effects of the listening room. We also ran my LSBR's with the original AL xovers and then with BEC's AA/A convertible models. BEC's new units fared much better, although the midrange appeared to be down several db under the rest of the speaker. I had some phase problems after installing those xovers, and my K55's are the 'M' variety. Perhaps I need to tweak something?

Then we all went over to Rogers for movies, stopping for pizza and cough syrup on the way. Watched (ok I slept through) 'Accepted' then Doc and Roger did some THX tests, I woke up for the two Circus Soleil DVD's! Like waking up in a trip, man! Very cool stuff and it sounded and looked like a million bucks on Indy's system! But those chairs are just toooo comfortable for me.

This afternoon Doc and I are running some more tests. We'll save all the curve plots to discuss later. We're running his kit subs against my THX just for fun. I'm also getting the comparator out to run the LSBR, CW, Heresy, and Forte's. We're going to run curves from the listening position of my room with all speakers in nearly the same postion. I realize that this will have room effects involved, but this is my listening room. We plan on just doing some general listening and evaluation prior to running the test plots so we don't color our opinions with the test results.

Will post more later.

Michael

[damonrpayne]

I'm glad to see DrWhat has more time for running room tests than I do, of course, I am lacking a room right now...

Which software did you use?

[mark1101]

So are you going to listen to any music? []

[colterphoto1]

We've got some Pink Floyd on right now. Playing with the Thx and LS various settings on the Yamaha. changing the xover point. LS Large/small, YPAO PEQ vs GEQ flat, stuff like that.

The graphs all look like hell due to boundary effects of mic placement and room modes. But at least we can look at them objectively to see if things are getting 'better' or not, then we confirm that test with a listening evaluation.

Thus far, LS on small at 80 Hz, phase at 0 degrees, PEQ looks best. Don't know if I could do better with DB meter and the graphic, but looks like the Yamaha YPAO is doing a good job of flattening the curve. So really I haven't changed anything from how I've been running this setup.

I think we'll move from this into comparing the various speakers now. My brain is just spinning from discussing all this stuff all day and handling client phone calls and getting some photo work out the door. Looks like I have a weekend consultation for wedding photography next summer. And got two kudos calls from clients this last month.

later.

M

[Arky]

You boys have fun.

JT

[DrWho]

Well we're running at 90 degrees phase, but who's counting? []

We're using RoomEQWizard and it's been annoying because I'm not exactly sure what the program is doing all the time (specifically with the calibration curves). It'd be nice if it would boost the response to accomodate instead of redrawing the zero line (which will curve down with the response of the soundcard/mic and all that). I just need to spend more time with the program.

I think Colter was a bit scared at first by how butt ugly everything looks when you throw a room into the mix. All sorts of dips and peaks all over the place - the interesting thing is that you can start explaining all of them when you look at distances between boundaries and the speakers/mic and all that.

I think the most interesting thing is that every measurement we took on the lascala indicated that the squaker was too quiet and the tweeter too hot. I'm sure Colter will be posting some of the measurement charts we took and I just wanted to mention that we moved the mic and speakers around quite a bit to try and get as true as possible measurements. The saved picture for all the plots was the best we could get things looking.

We just got finished listening to the khorns in the gallery - I tried some of my preferred eclectic crap, but the live room and lack of sub 5Hz capability of the khorns led us to other styles of music. We listened to a little jazz, beatles, three dog night, and finished up with some beethoven. Yea, I listen to some normal stuff every once in a while []

[Duke Spinner]

lack of sub 5Hz capability

drag out them F2's ...guy's....[]

[colterphoto1]

Doc's on his way home. Never got around to doing the speaker comparisons- but he'll be back in December and maybe I'll have fresh caps in some CW's by then, making it a fair comparison. Really trashed the hearth room REAL good, but we got Doc's subs and cables loaded up and doesn't look bad.

Thanks Roger for the movie night last night. It was fun even though I fell asleep. Learned a few things about testing in a real room. The first few charts were really horrid, but finally learned how to read them.

You all have a nice Thanksgiving. I'm staying home- maybe watching some movies and working on photos. Got to get ready for New Orleans, then work at Klipsch starting December 12.

Michael

[Islander]

It's surprising how much the room affects the sound of the speakers. Testing with a dB meter and test CD on my previous bass reflex speakers and my present La Scalas showed similar dips and peaks, although the speakers are quite different in design and sound.

I recently did a re-test and found that the narrow 7dB peaks at 35 and 60Hz were now peaks of 10dB and 9dB respectively, but the volume dropped to within 2dB of reference level only 10Hz above and below 35 and 60Hz. Are such narrow peaks typical? Hadn't noticed them when listening to music...

The only difference in the room between this test and the last one a few months ago was that I had uncovered a window (about 4ft x 3ft) that previously had a double layer of Cor-Plas placed in the windowframe, to darken the room for studio photography. Cor-Plas is that plastic stuff that's shaped just like corrugated cardboard and the window is to the right and a little ahead of the listening position.

I should mention that those peaks only appear when the sub is switched on (with both types of speakers). The Audio Logics and La Scalas are both sort of low in volume at 60 and at 35Hz.

Pat on the Island

[DrWho]

Ya, we listened to the Forte's in the office...what a boring speaker [][A] Just as boring as Roger's HT! [6] (Man, I'm really going to get in trouble now) []

As far as measurements....try moving your mic around to different locations and note how drastically the sound changes just from variations in placement. The huge dips generally have a very steep slope whereas peaks tend to be a bit wider.

Is it audible? Yes. However, Colter and I had an interesting discussion earlier today about psychoacoustics and the insanely awesome pattern recognition our brains have. With music, you won't hear the dip in the response unless there's a note at that frequency. All of the harmonics of that frequency tend to get squished out a bit too, but the timbre of the instrument is providing other "harmonics" that don't fall into the dips. Our brains hear these other parts of the sound and then fill in the missing parts since we know what the instrument is supposed to sound like. The other factor is that our brains can learn to ignore the effects of the room over time - which is often aided by listening to music in other environments where it's easier to hear new things you haven't heard before. Then when you come back to your system at home you'll start picking out those things - even if the room is technically hiding them.

Now that's not to say that treating the room isn't necessary - just that the measurements make things seem far far worse than we hear them to be. It can be a bit frustrating to try and get an idea of what you're actually hearing, so the best approach is to take a bunch of measurements in the general vincinity and "round them out". It'd be nice if you could plot multiple measurements on the same graph to make it easier to see.

I think one of the more interesting things we did today was measuring the effects of the PEQ - which is a 7 band parametric EQ that gets automatically set by the measurement and the YPAO thing the yamaha recievers have. Subjectively I thought things sounded better without it, but Colter liked it better with it - so to settle the "argument" we went about measuring the effects. It was interesting how the YPAO really flattened things out. And it was extremely consistent throughout the multiple listening positions. I put in some music I was more familiar with and kept switching back and forth over various songs and preferred different settings for different songs - but this is probably more due to variation in the recordings and since the PEQ measured better it only makes sense to keep it in the signal path.

Another thing we did, was measure the raw frequency response of the lascala...which I found to be most interesting - especially in light of all the lascala fanatics boasting 40Hz extension, [6] They pretty much drop off fast below 90Hz with a plateau between 50 and 80Hz...we measured both speakers - one was in a corner and the other much further out.

[Islander]

You're right about the La Scalas, Doc. Mine are down 4dB by 110 Hz, then down 8-12dB from 100Hz down to 50Hz, then they step down again, but there's less of a dip between 75 and 85 Hz. However, there aren't too many dips or peaks, so I'd call the bass response smooth, at least.

After experimenting with various subwoofer cut-off points, I found the flattest response was with the sub set at 150Hz. I haven't checked the sub alone, but even though it probably starts to roll off somewhere below 150, it integrates well with the Scalas when it's set at that point.

So much for setting subs based on published speaker specs!

Out of curiousity, with the sub set to roll off at 120, I tried setting the La Scalas at "small", so the sub would carry the bottom end, but the sound was definitely better set at "large" with two K-33s supplementing the 10-inch sub.

Pat on the Island

[DrWho]

That's interesting...we too played with crossover points between 40 and 200Hz in about 20Hz increments. We got the best measured frequency response with a 160Hz crossover, but felt things sounded better at the standard 80Hz. I think the reason for this is the localization of the subs increases the higher in frequency you go. And since crossover slopes aren't instantaneous, you can boost the output of the Ultra2's a few dB and fill in the gap between 80 and 150Hz. It actually works quite well because it also correspondingly boosts the output in the lower registers.

Another interesting tidbit is that the difference between large and small was under 1dB throughout the entire passband of the speaker...

[Islander]

Luckily, my sub is right beside the right speaker, and the left is not that far away, so localization is not much of a problem. With my bedroom setup, it was a problem, since the mattress absorbs so much sound, so I went with two subs in there.

As for the "small" and "large" thing, I didn't take any measurements. The actual volume didn't seem that different, but the "large" setting seemed to produce a subjectively bigger sound, probably due to the extra eight square feet of two bass horns at work.

Pat on the Island

[djk]

"Mine are down 4dB by 110 Hz, then down 8-12dB from 100Hz down to 50Hz,"

• Posted by

djk ( i ) on August 12, 2000 at 01:35:33:

In Reply to: Re: Klipschorn posted by Colt45 on August 11, 2000 at 10:43:59:

The taper rate on a

LaScala

is 8 inches,or 100hz.The mouth area,based on quarter wave requirements,will support 135hz.Klipsch claims the response fits in a 10dB window from 45hz to 17khz.The speaker measures 10dB down at 45hz with respect to the output in the 100hz to 200hz octave.It meets spec.

[djk]

"Mine are down 4dB by 110 Hz, then down 8-12dB from 100Hz down to 50Hz"

• Posted by

djk

(

i

)

on August 12, 2000 at 01:35:33:

In Reply to:

Re: Klipschorn

posted by Colt45 on August 11, 2000 at 10:43:59:

The taper rate on a

LaScala

is 8 inches,or 100hz.The mouth area,based on quarter wave requirements,will support 135hz.Klipsch claims the response fits in a 10dB window from 45hz to 17khz.The speaker measures 10dB down at 45hz with respect to the output in the 100hz to 200hz octave.It meets spec.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

• Posted by

djk

(

M

)

on August 01, 2003 at 02:23:16

In Reply to:

LS coupled 1/4 space

posted by mr.x on July 31, 2003 at 18:36:24:

Does the

LaScala

have any bass?

Not really.

Klipsch states the

LaScala

frequency response to fit a 10dB envelope from 60hz~17Khz in 4Pi, the response peaks in the 100hz~200hz octave, so that means it is 10dB down at 60hz.

Klipsch also says the

LaScala

frequency response fits a 10dB envelope from 45hz~17Khz in a 100M^3 room(the demo room at Klipsch being roughly 10' X 16' X 25').

The impedance of the

LaScala

shows a single peak between 60hz~70hz depending on what woofer it is loaded with. The taper rate is 8", IOW 100hz.

[colterphoto1]

Yeah, kind of ticked me off measuring the LS, now I'm wondering about selling off those LSI's I so highly coveted and went to pains to collect. What good is a PA that will only dig down to 100 Hz then fall off? Oh well. Playing with the crossover point was intriguing. You could really hear the 'suck out' when changing from 80 to 60 and then 40. It was pretty consistent at 80, 90, 100, then at 120 and above I didn't enjoy the THX taking over so much- thought the bass got a bit 'honky' But good to confirm that the speaker position, angle, xover point, and YPAO were all working as intended. Because of their rolloff, and that I have the THX sub system, I'm using the LS set to SMALL. (contrary to my previous tirades on the subject)

In other words, we confirmed that my setup by ear was the best that could be done with the equipment at hand. Didn't make any changes other than adjust the phase on the THX from 0 to 90 degrees. I do wonder if I could do better with the graphic eq, test tones and meter/computer. Interesting to note that the YPAO did not make the response chart flat (measured as the same position with both mics), but it did lessen all of the peaks and dips by a db or two. I think it does a good job. But again- just move a foot or so and the sound is entirely different. So we did prove that using EQ to straighten out room acoustics is a very dodgy affair. I'd be interested in artto's or mas's assessment of that statement.

So DJK, you agree with our assessment of the LS? I was unsure given your quotes. I think what I hear is that the LS on their own do a pretty good job with traditional musics, but for HT or modern LF works, more bass is necessary. Or are you saying that the LS has nearly no bass at all, or ??

Back to Doc's comments on our psychoacoustic discussion. I noted that upon moving from one home to another, the stereo always sounds like a million bucks in the new environment. I suppose the 'newness' of the acoustic space is what does it, not that the new space is better. Doc offered that most folks move into bigger digs constantly, but my listening rooms have remained fairly consistent in size, but the acoustics are different. Noted that last system was CW's on the short wall in plaster/hardwood room. Now I have LS on the LONG wall in heavily carpeted/pine wood paneled room (soft/warm sound) . But my Khorns are in the very live gallery with it's Brazilian Cherry floors and 1" plaster walls (bright, snappy sound) . I listen to different musics on the two systems.

I have to say here- I find it so much more enjoyable to watch movies/ concerts and listen to music with friends who can dissect and discuss it. I know that talking through movies is grounds for divorce for some, and that many members have but a single chair at their sweet spot in the listening room. Other more pedestrian listeners have commented that it must be hell being me, having to take each musical performance apart instrument by instrument.

For me though, enlightening (and brain dizzying) conversations about the acoustics, instrumentation, recording technique, or the performance itself are part of the enjoyment. Doc and I are able to effortlessly wile away hours in this behavior. Roger also chimed in during the evenings stay at his house.

Doc and I ended the visit listening to Beethoven in the Gallery on the Khorns (CD played through a walkman into HK430- what a bizarre setup), discussing the philosophies of how to get the guitar player to turn it down on stage and how to further drive the ego of the vocalist by cranking the effects in the monitors. I'm happy to see that he changed his sig line back to the 'It's territorial'. That was my first hint that this young Forum member really knew his stuff.

Thanks for stopping by Doc! I did more serious listening yesterday than I have in ages.

My brain hurts a bit this am. Back to beddies..

M

[Islander]

Based on my limited experience, I suspect that most speakers (perhaps not Khorns) benefit from the assistance of a subwoofer, not just La Scalas. The "20-20k" speaker seems to be an advertising fiction, at least any that cost less than a nice car. Even some $80,000 speakers sound better with a sub, or so I've read.

"What good is a PA that will only dig down to 100 Hz then fall off?" PAs are for speech, aren't they? Who's got a voice deeper than 100Hz? Don't mean to sound like I'm mocking you, but sometimes measurements can make you think that something you're really happy with is now somehow inadequate and not as good as it was before you measured it.

For me, the La Scalas plus Paradigm sub sound more like live music than any other speakers I've ever heard. That's good enough for me.

Pat on the Island

[jackpod]

Michael,

Which Cirque Du Soliel did you see? I have most all of their stuff that is available on DVD, BUT if you ever get to Vegas, you have to see "O" and "KA" The most spectacular live performance I have ever seen. We make a yearly trip to Belagio to see "O". We have seen it 5 times now. It is absolutely "edge of your seat" the entire time, we have also seen Mystere and Zumanity. We are planning to go in February and will be making reservations to see "O", Ka and Mystere. Zumanity is real strange, very sexual in nature, but it has its moments, it is nothing like any of the other Cirque's

Jack

[colterphoto1]

I haven't seen any of them live. I think Roger saw one at Disney Florida around the Millenium change.

We watched two on DVD- Dralion and La Nouva. I liked them both, but the operaetic warbling got a bit old and I would have liked to have seen a few shots of the band. It sounded phenomenal on Roger's system.

I think the last time I spent any lengthy listening time at Rogers (not counting sports or tidbits), we're talking real music for extended periods, he hadn't stuffed the speaker cubbyholes (closets?) with fibreglass and the curtains weren't up. The system sounded much tighter, less ringy/boxy with the glass around the speakers. Lower mid anomolies really bother me, and it's my guess that having the LS in those closets amplified some of the cabinet ringing, he completely killed it with his smart treatment. Bravo-man!

[Clarence]

i'm playin thru.