Attention Denon and KSW-12 owners! Help!

[t-man]

Just got my system upgraded from Pro-Logic. Now have the following:

Denon AVR-1601/681

KG 3.2 (mains)

KV-2 (center)

KG 1 (rears)

KSW-12

Now I've read every post on this bass management issue, and searched the web and denon's tech support. They (denon) STRONGLY recommend setting all speaks to "small", unless you have HUGE mains. I've been tweeking for days, and figure this to be the best sound as well with my KG 3.2s - despite what others are recommending on this site - including denon's owners manual.

My question is that if the reciever supposedly cuts off the frequencies under 80hz to the sub only (nowhere does is this mentioned "explicitly" in the manual. One can only guess based on their statement about speaks being able to handle below 80 htz), and the rest of the frequencies are handled by the speakers, how do I set my crossover on the sub?

I don't want to lose LFE, but I don't want to have high frequency muddy bass that sounds terrible when I turn up the sub. I'd like to set it around 80 and leave it, as I get the best sound for music, but am I possibly missing something by not cranking it to 120 for HT, namely LFE data?

In theory, the reciever's crossover should not put frequencies greater than 80 hz into the sub, but when I play with the subs crossover dial, I get more higher, annoying bass as I turn the dial past 80, all the way to 120. This doesn't seem right??

I have it hooked up via the sub RCA out and y spliter. No speaker wires into the sub, b/c I want to control the sub from the remote. Why is my sub still getting Bass above 80hz?

Thanks,

T-man

[tgourlie]

I'm not quite getting all of this. If you are using your LFE than the sub's crossover should have nothing to do with it. I have the KSW 15 and the LFE is not filtered by the sub crossover.

[ERIK]

How exactly do you have your sub hooked up to your reciever?

[t-man]

The KSW-15 has a different connection than KSW-12, so you really can't compare them.

As far as my connection, I have a sub cable with the mono end plugged into the sub-out of the reciever. The cable then splites into a y, and I have both hooked up to the line level inputs on my sub.

Everything sounds great, but I want to make sure I'm not missing info by not cranking my subs crossever to 120. I don't like amplifying high bass at the same volume as the lower stuff.

Thanks,

T-man

[Guest BobG]

The filter in the receiver which passes only low frequency information to the sub does not cut off instantaneously. This is true of almost all filters. Instead, it gradually rolls off at something like 12 dB per octave. 120 Hz is less than 1 octave above the 80 Hz 'corner' frequency of the filter and thus there is still signal output at that point. If the filter is 12 dB per octave, then at 120 Hz, the level is something like 6 dB down. Still quite audible. There are filters which cut off very sharply, but there are other technical reasons for not using 'steep slope' filters.

Play with the sub crossover till you don't hear those higer components coming from the sub. Nothing you can do about any higher info on LFE since an LFE input has no filter. LFE does not contain anything high based on the way it is recorded.

Check the setup menu on your receiver and listen to the differences when you vary the setup.

[t-man]

BobG,

That is very interesting information. It helps to explain a few things. Is that "flattened" curve also true of the KSW-12's crossover, or just the denon?

Are you saying to set the crossover as high as possible on the sub where it doesn't annoy me?

Also, I'm a bit confused about the LFE comment you left, as this is an area of deep (no punn) concern for me. If I set the subs crossover at say...80-90 hz, will I be missing something in the .1 LFE channel, or will it be routed in some way to the mains? I have all speaks set to "small".

Thanks,

T-man

[boa12]

i think about all lfe is below 80hz but u could be missing some w/ the sub cross set to

80 or lower. so i've found it best to switch

out the sub cross (or in your case turn it up) for HT & switch it in (turn it down) for music. of course for music it blends better w/ the fronts set to large for me. wonder if the new rsw will have a crossover in/out switch? all newer subs for use using the sub preouts on a/v receivers should.

------------------

RF-3 (front), RC-3, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub

Monsterbass 400 sub cables & Monster Z-12 wire

Sony de935 a/v receiver

Sony DVP-C650D dvdp

Sony Trinitron 27" tv

Technics dual cassette deck

Technics direct drive turntable

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

rock on!

[boa12]

oh & as bobg referenced, i think the ksw rolls off at least initially at 12db/octave.

so the problem (though not a biggy) is you're

getting dueling filters. does your denon have sub out crossover controls of it's own? i know some of the denon models do.

also, if u haven't already, u may want to experiment w/ the bass output setting (like sub only).

[boa12]

here's a goodie from dolby on LFE...

[t-man]

Boa12,

My denon does NOT have an adjustable crossover control. That would be cool. In fact, it does not state in the manual where the crossover is at. It does state a comment in two different areas about 80hz or something in reference to setting up mains as large or small.

Even though my KG 3.2s are capable of handling down to 45 hz, I think it still sounds better if I have bass mgt set to "small" for all my speaks. Wierd, but seemingly true.

I haven't played with music vs HT in this regard. Seems like too much maintenace everytime I want to listen to something...now I want a CD, so I'll get up, dial my subs crossover down, and then set up my reciever to change from small to large, set sub from normal to sub+main, etc...Now I can play my CD??? What a pain. I guess I just have to find a happy medium, and leave it alone

I like the idea of a reciever that can do this automatically, and link the preferences (crossover setting, and speaker size, sub mode, etc) for each sound source ie. cd vs DVD. Or, have different user modes (I think your sony may be able to do this). Then, the sub could just be a dummy bass boomer, without any crossover control, or have a bypass (like the KSW-15). Why is this only avail in the KSW-15, anyway?????? dumb.

When such a reciever like this is available, somebody please let me know, but don't tell my wife. Oh yea, it needs to be less than $500. doh!

T-man

[dougdrake]

t-man - I can't recall the details on this, so you'll have to check. Does the Denon 1601 have a feature called Personal Preferences (or something like that)? My 3300 has that feature, and it will remember how you have it set for each source. For example, I can have the DVD selected as the source, set the bass/treble/channel volumes/etc... then switch to the CD as the source, set the parameters differently, and it will remember the settings I had for the DVD player when I return to it. I don't know if it remembers all the parameters you are referring to, but you might want to check that out.

[boa12]

t-man, yea that's 1 good thing my sony does have. but it doesn't include the sub out crossover control. i think like doug's denon

may have that.

------------------

RF-3 (front), RC-3, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub

Monsterbass 400 sub cables & Monster Z-12 wire

Sony de935 a/v receiver

Sony DVP-C650D dvdp

Sony Trinitron 27" tv

Technics dual cassette deck

Technics direct drive turntable

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

rock on!

[boa12]

oh & don't get me started -the ksw-15 is not a panacea for our HT receiver/sub incompatibilities - we'd still have the same problem w/ music cds. w/ it's dedicated nonfiltered lfe it's fine for dvd/lfe since the receiver's non-filtered lfe is low anyway & explosions sound better w/ more distortion. but it does filter low bass to the sub like on cds at a higher freq level than we would like (hence the boominess & need to adjust the sub cross down & unplug the lfe in).

so again, the only solution is not using the sub preouts - using the main preouts or speaker level. or getting a better receiver

klipsch & others must have designed their subs thinking we would have such features on our ht receivers. f.e., w/ the ksw-15 they were thinking hey ht receivers have a seperate lfe only preout. let's make an input on our sub for this. unfortunate for many their receivers have only a sub out that has another function for analog sources - it also sends filtered low bass to the sub out up to 120hz (usually not good for sub music bass reproduction). & so it goes...