Rope Caulking Works!

[BEC]

Rick,

I believe that restriction caused by the gasket is intended.  The hole in the gasket is about 5/8 inch and all the factory gaskets are like that.  Perhaps has to do with properly loading the K-55?

Bob

I'll respectfully challenge the above.

About 18 months ago while removing a K-55 driver from its K600 horn, I noticed that the rubber washer was restricting the K600 throat and was dry and a little brittle.  I checked my other 5 Cornwalls and found the same (1974's and 1980's).  I ordered 10 new gaskets from Klipsch @ $1 each ( minimum order was $10 ).  What I received does not restrict the throat.

In a personal conversation with the inventor of the "P-Trap", I recounted this discovery, at a fellow forum members home one afternoon.  His comment was that the throat should not be restricted.

Opinion only: I assume PWK had the K600 built to his specs and would not have relied on a washer to do the job, which the horn was designed to do.

Mike

Mike,

I think you are right.  Don't know why I never noticed before, but checking several old horns around here with original gaskets, they all restrict the throat a bit.  But, the new gaskets do not.  Looks like the old ones just spread out inward from pressure over the years.

Bob

[pauln]

I don't worry about the horns ringing cause my new ones don't, but I do worry about the various wires laying over the throat buzzing/rattling so I wrap my horns with a bath towel...

[IB Slammin]

Just ditch them, old and new. Rope Caulk makes a better gasket[8-|]

tc

[mace]

I'm just posting because my avatar goes oh-so-well with this thread. 

When I got my K-Horns a while back I caulked one squawker. I actually reused some rope caulk from my Cornwall basket woofer basket, plus some new. At any rate, I did need to do a small bit of cleaning on the CW woofer basket to get the remnant rope caulk off. I would consider the procedure reversible, though, at least after 3 years (that's how long the caulk was on the woofer basket). 

On the Cornwalls I didn't notice much of a difference, but I didn't do the squawkers. On the K-Horn I didn't notice much of a difference either... and the K-Horn (I only caulked one to start with, to see if made an iota of difference) I did caulk is now squarely behind our Christmas tree. So, I have to wait a few weeks (until the house clears out) until I can do some testing. But, for casual listening I can't say I notice a difference between the K-Horns (one with, one without caulk on squawk). 

Regards,

Mace

[wuzzzer]

Would rope caulking have any benefit in a Forte II speaker?

[marems]

It should... I rope caulked my KLF-30's sqawker and it sure helped. I just got a can of the Cascade damping spray, And I'm doing my CF-4's horns next!

[TBrennan]

According to Berenek's Law damping a horn helps even if it really doesn't. ;-)

[marems]

The Wilson Audio speaker lines, they use ultra dense cabnet material so the cabnets have no resonence what so ever except at the one chosen frequency. I have also read that they demonstrate the differences with a traditional wood cabnet and their ultra dense cabnets using the same drivers in both. And the difference is very great. So I do agree that damping a horn or cabnet is a good thing.MOHO[]

[BEC]

If you have a cabinet resonance you should treat it.

If you have a horn resonance, you should treat it.

If you have hypertension, you should treat it.

If you do not have those, no treatment is indicated.

Bob Crites

[TBrennan]

"The Wilson Audio speaker lines"

Wilson is a con man and the last way to make a point with me is to point to Wilson.

[marems]

Well I sure as hell would never pay $40,000.00 for a pair of the Watt Puppys. I think that that is just outrageus. let alone $125,000.00 for the top of their line. So, yes I agree with you too

[ka7niq]

Isn't rope caulking just moving the "resonance" somewhere else ?

What about using some Epoxy, make the horn harder, more rigid, move the "resonance" Up in frequency, assuming there IS a resonance ?

I rope caulked my CF 4 horns, then took it off.

But that was before biamping.

Might try it again, just for kicks.

Also wanna play around adding some fiberglass or dacron to the inside walls of the CF 4's.

Gotta be careful to not screw up port tuning/box volume/etc....

[ka7niq]

Yes, i tried it on my old CF 4's version 2's.

I took it off.

But I am THINKING of trying it again on my biamped CF 3's Version ONES.

Here are my thoughts.

I think ALL the CF 3's and CF 4s I have heard have the horns level "right on the edge", or what some would call "Pro Sound Voicing"

IMHO and experience, this makes you place the speaker near a wall to balance the sound out, killing the remarkable imaging these speakers are known for.

Once you place the speakers 3 to 4 feet out into the room for proper depth of image, the horn is playing way too loud.

Solution, biamp the speakers with one amp having level controls.

This will allow you to turn that God Forsaken Horn DOWN in level a little bit.

A CF 3 or CF 4, set up like this is a very good speaker.

Delgado used good drivers, and his transition in the crossover is ok too.

It is the LEVEL of the Horn that is THE Problem.

Now, back to the rope caulk !!

In the STOCK CF 4's, the UN Rope Caulked horns had more high frequency sheen, more aliveness.

The Rope Caulk seems to reduce coloration, but also to deaden the sound a bit.

Stock, the extra sheen of the un rope caulked horn in the CF 4 makes the increased horn level easier to tolerate.

But now that I can CONTROL the horns level, I may prefer the lower coloration of the rope caulked horn ?

But, from one CF series owner to another, NOTHING YOU CAN DO OR BUY will make as much difference as turning down the level of that horn in the CF 4 or CF 3's.

The CF series speakers are a god darn shame, they really are.

This is a case where Klipsch's use of an autoformer bit em in the azz.

And, I WONDER if someone screwed up in the final specs/ delivery of these Autoformers, ruining Delgado's wonderful design ?

In a conventional crossover, a simple L Pad, or a fixed resistor on the horn would have fixed the problem.

In the series 2's, Klipsch raised the woofer tuning in an attempt at an easy fix, but they created a boom box instead.

Do yourself a BIG favor my friend, listen to these biamped so you can control the horns level, and you will hear the sound Delgado HAD in store for us.

And let me know your experience with the rope caulk.

BTW, I have ZILLIONS of amps/preamps, both tube and solid state.

The CF 3's and CF 4's seem to like BIG solid state amps.

I find NO NEED for tubes on them, at least for amps.

You will see what I mean when you biamp them !

[seti]

If you bolt down a horn it don't ring. The energy needed to make it ring when bolted would be substantial. JMO

[Coytee]

If you bolt down a horn it don't ring. The energy needed to make it ring when bolted would be substantial. JMO

I was always under this impression too. Seems to me if you have anykind of bell and ring it...the moment you set it down on the countertop, the ring GREATLY subsides.

Maybe I'll go do it.... but I've never thwacked my K400's to see if they resonate at all, if I DO thwack them, what should I listen for that would be best described as ringing?

[^o)]

[seti]

If you bolt down a horn it don't ring. The energy needed to make it ring when bolted would be substantial. JMO

I was always under this impression too. Seems to me if you have anykind of bell and ring it...the moment you set it down on the countertop, the ring GREATLY subsides.

Maybe I'll go do it.... but I've never thwacked my K400's to see if they resonate at all, if I DO thwack them, what should I listen for that would be best described as ringing?

Yes but how much energy would it take a driver to simulate a thwack..... A driver would never react that way with a horn. To make a horn resonate would take an amount of energy that couldn't come from a driver. JMO

[Coytee]

I'm a bit undecided....

Would it be better for the wife to thwack me over the head with a metal K400 that is relatively small, or the composite K402 which is relatively large...

I will then have enough empiracle data for my research to come to my own conclusions as to if they ring in my room, with my equipment, or not.

[]

[seti]

I'm a bit undecided....

Would it be better for the wife to thwack me over the head with a metal K400 that is relatively small, or the composite K402 which is relatively large...

I will then have enough empiracle data for my research to come to my own conclusions as to if they ring in my room, with my equipment, or not.

I'll be right there : )

[thirdeye]

#1 The deadening of the horn back makes perfect sense, not because the horn is necessarily ringing but the resonance from the WOOFER and other vibrating devices in the cabinet also enhance the ringing of the material smearing the image..

I just did a project " The Killer KLF 10's " and they sounded very good right off the bat with the new cabinet and crossover design, however I could tell there was a weaker gap coming off the artificial thin and cheaper plastic horns to the cabinet..

I actually dynamated the whole horn and Magnet to kill of simply more Back waves of the Woofer from resonating thru the plastic surface separating and MAss damping the horn even better from the system.. I did this after listening tests of not treating the horn at all, well guess what, the results were pretty good, lowering the mids a little to be fuller and more integrated to the woofers, and also just smoothing out and causing a more dense and complete image.

So although the horns Own frequencies and compression driver may not be as effected by damping the back of the horn the rest of the cabinet air space shared by the other drivers is, and it does consolidate the reflections in the cabinet much better in my opinion, and again it sure can't hurt anything if you have cheap stuff laying around to try it!

I did it because I had some sheets of this stuff doing nothing from other projects, used it up and glad I did.. Here is the project link, but I did not get pics of the horns after I did the treatment sorry. Just remeber especially in some of the klipsch designs you do have a very large and THIN plastic surface sealing off a large portion of the cabinet as in my example on the link, it can help deaden things up nicely if applied correctly.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/103108.aspx

[Brac]

so the energy that makes the ringing comes from the woofer. More energy, Hz more likely to resonate. Does this mean we all agree that Khorn's, which by design the horns don't share space with the woofer, therefore are immune?????