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K400 vs K401

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I have been told that the K400 Metal horn for the klipsch horn and LaScala is supposed to be superior to the K401 fiber composite horn because the metal surface propegates the sound wave better.

However I believe the K401 horn may sound better. Is it just a matter of opinion?

John

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Properly mounted...I can't tell a difference.

Sitting on top of an empty cab....diiferent story.....they have a different sound....matter of personal preference which is better....my prefernece is to mount it in the cab.


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"the metal surface propegates the sound wave better."

That's a cockamamie notion John, ignore it.

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I have been told that the K400 Metal horn for

the klipsch horn and LaScala is supposed to be superior to the K401

fiber composite horn because the metal surface propegates the sound

wave better.

However I believe the K401 horn may sound better. Is it just a matter of opinion?

John

The reality is that the

Aluminum horn rings like a church bell and the composite horn doesn't

(though it may ring a bit). However, Dynamat or rope caulk will

eliminate the ringing in the K-400 but is quite difficult to add to the

K-401.

If you are thinking the propagation is

through the mass of the horn, then, I suppose that is correct, but it

is a dreadfull, undesireable trait.

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I've had both and had no problems nor seen any reason to have one over the other...good luck...someone here will produce a scientific chart showing I am wrong but all I can do is use my ears...

Bill

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If the horns were hanging like a church bell I could buy that but that are not. If you took a bell and drilled holes through the rim and firmly mounted it the ringing would be gone and all you would get is a thud. The horns is firmly mounted in the cabinet and should be fine. How much acoutical energy would it take to equaly a strike equal of a bell?

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From PWK's IEEE paper describing his "new" K-400 horn.

Bob Crites


post-9312-13819321215756_thumb.jpg

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If the horns were hanging like a church bell I
could buy that but that are not. If you took a bell and drilled holes
through the rim and firmly mounted it the ringing would be gone and all
you would get is a thud. The horns is firmly mounted in the cabinet and
should be fine. How much acoutical energy would it take to equaly a
strike equal of a bell?

O.K., take a small
screwdriver and strike the top center of the K-400 with the handle
while it is mounted. Or, Play a good recording of an Alto and
wrap your hand around the throat of the horn.

For that
matter, knock on the top of your cabinets with your knuckles. All
that stuff is audible, even to a deaf man, like me.

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Regardless of the audibility of ringing I think the point was that some jasper thought that one material provided a better "launch" than another which seems ridiculous to me.

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The theory of horn function is based on waves moving through the horn from the little end to the big end.

Part of the theory is that is does not matter of what the horn walls are composed - they just need to comprise a firm barrier.

Knocking on the horn is not an appropriate test for ringing - it's the wrong kind of wave - you're making lateral waves across the chamber in the horn.

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The theory of horn function is based on waves moving through the horn from the little end to the big end.

Part of the theory is that is does not matter of what the horn walls are composed - they just need to comprise a firm barrier.

Knocking on the horn is not an appropriate test for ringing - it's

the wrong kind of wave - you're making lateral waves across the chamber

in the horn.

Are you serious?! Knocking on a horn shows whether it can be excited and if it has a resonance. I can guarantee you the compression driver can excite every resonance in the horn that is near the operating range of the driver.

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If the horns were hanging like a church bell I

could buy that but that are not. If you took a bell and drilled holes

through the rim and firmly mounted it the ringing would be gone and all

you would get is a thud. The horns is firmly mounted in the cabinet and

should be fine. How much acoutical energy would it take to equaly a

strike equal of a bell?

O.K., take a small

screwdriver and strike the top center of the K-400 with the handle

while it is mounted. Or, Play a good recording of an Alto and

wrap your hand around the throat of the horn.

For that

matter, knock on the top of your cabinets with your knuckles. All

that stuff is audible, even to a deaf man, like me.

But does a sound wave 'knock on the top of the cabinet like you knuckles', or 'strike the top center like a screwdriver might?' I think all this thumping is for Naught.

Thanks for the article Bob!

I thought I did notice a difference in my LSI's but the motor board is only 1/2" and not as securely attached to the cabinet as a standard LS is- where it is an integral part of the cabinet.

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Didn't Roy mention a while back that the forces generated by a woofer sharing the same cabinet have about the same force as rapping your knuckles on the horn? But in a speaker like the khorn and lascala, the squawker isn't sharing the same volume of air so this isn't going to be an issue. However, I seem to recall Trey mentioning in Hope last summer that the walls on the lascala bass bins get a bit weaker since they were so close to spec and that's why some of them vibrate all crazy style...considering the horn is effectively mechanically coupled to the bass bin, I wonder if the flexing walls might initiate some of the resonance of the horn?

Anyways, I'm sure the move to the K401 horn had more to do with the plastic molds being cheaper and easier to build (not to mention cheaper on shipping too - every lil bit helps). Any reduction in ring was probably pure coincidence.

I'm not sure if it came from PWK, but someone mentioned that an unmounted metal horn will ring from the compression driver - but once you mount it properly in the cabinet all of the damping was taken care of by the enclosure. That would probably correlate well to observations about the cabinet vibrating...?

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The outside surface of the k400 is smooth, offering no reinforcement against lateral waves. The k401 appears to have braces molded into the outside of the horn, which would offer stability against said waves. Also being of a material that is lighter than the predecessor, wouldn't this make any waves that could be created less noticeable. I think with these two improvements that the k401 would be a better horn if this was a huge problem.

I have often wondered if this was driver dependent, K-55-V vs. K-55-M? From what I've read the K-55-V has a tendency to have a notch, if you will, at around 9500Hz. Could this be the culpret causing the ringing?

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If the horns were hanging like a church bell I

could buy that but that are not. If you took a bell and drilled holes

through the rim and firmly mounted it the ringing would be gone and all

you would get is a thud. The horns is firmly mounted in the cabinet and

should be fine. How much acoutical energy would it take to equaly a

strike equal of a bell?

O.K., take a small

screwdriver and strike the top center of the K-400 with the handle

while it is mounted. Or, Play a good recording of an Alto and

wrap your hand around the throat of the horn.

For that

matter, knock on the top of your cabinets with your knuckles. All

that stuff is audible, even to a deaf man, like me.

But

does a sound wave 'knock on the top of the cabinet like you knuckles',

or 'strike the top center like a screwdriver might?' I think all this

thumping is for Naught.

Thanks for the article Bob!

I

thought I did notice a difference in my LSI's but the motor board is

only 1/2" and not as securely attached to the cabinet as a standard LS

is- where it is an integral part of the cabinet.

Michael,

I'm

too tired to rewrite what I had before My browser crashed. Try

what I suggest. I did and ended up Dynamating my horns and

stuffing my upper chambers to kill the resonances I heard and confirmed

by touch.

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Having had 'metal' horns in the past with Heresy, La Scala and Khorn and more recently Forte and now Khorn AK4 and can say there is a diff with sound resonance and projection in metal v plastic. I have stuffed the HF section of the Khorn with sound absorbing material and noticed (as well as a mate of mine) that the top end became more focused with what I can only describe as more 'thickness or body'. Just my ears telling me and no measurements. Truth probably is that it added a dimension to room acoustics in the corners where the Khorns sit.

Cheers

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I have the k400 right now unmounted sent by Markgod (Thank you) but yes they do ring when they are unmounted but I think once you mount them the ring turns more to a thud. At worst, I think some playdoh or clay around the outside part of the horn will reduce any ringing.

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I have the k400 right now unmounted sent by
Markgod (Thank you) but yes they do ring when they are unmounted but I
think once you mount them the ring turns more to a thud. At
worst, I think some playdoh or clay around the outside part of the horn
will reduce any ringing.

Much more than a thud. Playdoh will dry out, rope caulk won't; give it a try.

You
aren't likely to notice the ringing until you listen for it or you take
it away. It causes an edgy, "excited" tone. I'm usually
deaf and insensitive to stuff like amps and cables that so many rave
about making huge sonic improvements (so far tube amps are a boring
letdown); if I can hear this EVERYBODY can.

One of the
common comments made 6 years ago when this discussion began on this
forum, was damping the horns took the excitement away and killed the
Klipsch sound. For me the Klipsch sound is detail and accuracy,
not necessarily excitement. I love mine like this. An audio
dealer and friend would never listen to my system, even though I bought
most of it from him. because it had La Scalas. I kept telling
him they weren't what he thought they were and that they sounded much
like his Apogee Divas. Finally, he heard them (as tweaked) and
agreed, enough to buy some of the Reference series to sell in his shop.

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