ben. Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Good points ben. "As a musician, I can tell you that for most of the folks I've played with it is primarily about ourselves and the feeling we get from it. It's extremely gratifying to reach listeners and share that moment, but all the good ones I've met would do it with no recorded document or audience to bear witrness." This is true, but it is true for all forms of playing, there is nothing different about jazz here. I am a musician and yes we play for the joy of it. That's why I will not draw a distinction that somehow jazz is all about the player but rock, country, whatever is not. You're right of course. I guess it just reflects my experience with players of different genres. The rock/blues guys I've played with are less attuned to the experience that the jazz (or even old-time bluegrass) folks are after. Many times I've called a tune in rehearsal that's a real gas to play only to have guys decline as it was "gig-ready" and therefore less worthy of our time. We were obviously there for different reasons. I haven't exactly been around the world, but my experience is that musicians that play less improvisational music are more concerned with reaching the audience than musicians that are pursuing improv. I'll avoid absolutes as there's certainly a spectrum with extremes and middle ground in every genre, and even within the same band. I should note that for the past few years I've been seeking that musical quality in a more structured format. It's tough to find folks that want to hone in on that kind of experience within the confines of a 3 1/2 minute pop tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 I really like African Jazz the Manu Dibango, Chief Osadabebe, and then there is the Ethiopiques collection. http://www.amazon.com/Ethiopiques-Vol-Musique-Instrumentale-1969-1974/dp/B00000DDMB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Good points, Allan. Those "jam bands" are more accessible for exactly the reasons you mention. Would agree that there's a strong element of vicariousness to the listener's enjoyment of instrumental jazz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsched with Yamahas Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 .....lightbulb just came on! I get it now! Interesting perspective from a musician and techy(pardon the label).....didn't know my audience! All good points Allan, Ben, and Oldtimer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 I know very little about jazz, but what I've experienced so far is truely universal. It may be an American institution, but its roots have definately spread across the Atlantic. I can tell you this much, the Germans love jazz! When I was stationed overseas back in the early '80s there was this little jazz joint in downtown Stuttgart I would venture to every chance I got (wish I could recall the name). This little dimly-lit, smoke-filled room had a small stage up front and a bar in back and maybe seated 100 patrons, but every time I went there (usually on a Saturday night) the place was packed like a can of sardines and you could barely breath! But it didn't matter...the music was smokin'! This club attracted international musicians, including big-name American groups (which I never saw, only those throughout Europe); regardless of their fame, all the musicians I saw were first-rate class acts that represented all genres of jazz at its best, and audience participation was outstanding to say the least...that club went wild! I always had a blast there, always staying 'til closing, and I sure do miss it alot. Gary's right about experiencing live jazz...it can't be beat![H] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jheis Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 If you've got a broadband connection, check out kcsm.org. 24 hour a day commercial free real jazz (none of that "smooth" crap). This is a PBS station & they are in the middle of a pledge drive, so sign up and support one of the last all jazz stations. James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Good points by all. I do think however that more people would be open to discovering and enjoying jazz if words like more accessible and being afraid of the music were not used. I am sure that it is not intentional but to me it leaves the impression that if you do not like something it has more to do with a persons inability to understand it rather than simply not liking it. I enjoy a fair bit of Jazz and find a fair bit not to my liking. I certainly understand it from a musical perspective more than most I just dont enjoy listening to some of it. I can assure you that I am not afraid of it. A funny example I was listening to a blue note sampler sacd the other day and my wife walked in and asked in all seriousness if I was listening to a porno movie soundtrack. She is incredibly well educated, sophisticated, and can debate the symbolism in Waiting for Gadot in three languages and she thinks that be bop sounds like a porno movie soundtrack (if you listen and close your eyes it kind of does!!). My point being that she has the intellectual capabilities to not be afraid of it she just doesnt like it. Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Good points by all. I do think however that more people would be open to discovering and enjoying jazz if words like more accessible and being afraid of the music were not used. I am sure that it is not intentional but to me it leaves the impression that if you do not like something it has more to do with a persons inability to understand it rather than simply not liking it. I enjoy a fair bit of Jazz and find a fair bit not to my liking. I certainly understand it from a musical perspective more than most I just dont enjoy listening to some of it. I can assure you that I am not afraid of it. A funny example I was listening to a blue note sampler sacd the other day and my wife walked in and asked in all seriousness if I was listening to a porno movie soundtrack. She is incredibly well educated, sophisticated, and can debate the symbolism in Waiting for Gadot in three languages and she thinks that be bop sounds like a porno movie soundtrack (if you listen and close your eyes it kind of does!!). My point being that she has the intellectual capabilities to not be afraid of it she just doesnt like it. Josh Yeah. I was hesitant to use the word "accessible", and managed to get the second "s" in there only with an edit, I must admit. I only used it as I had a hard time thining of a word that was more accurate in my mind. Rest assured I wish it could be used without a value judgement. I only meant to refer to the familiarity and popularity of the music. See.... popular could be even worse. I tend to use "pop" to refer to music that isn't classical or jazz. My background is such that I still find myself referring to classical music - even modern stuff - as "legit". Words are tricky... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Good points by all. I do think however that more people would be open to discovering and enjoying jazz if words like more accessible and being afraid of the music were not used. I am sure that it is not intentional but to me it leaves the impression that if you do not like something it has more to do with a persons inability to understand it rather than simply not liking it. I enjoy a fair bit of Jazz and find a fair bit not to my liking. I certainly understand it from a musical perspective more than most I just dont enjoy listening to some of it. I can assure you that I am not afraid of it. A funny example I was listening to a blue note sampler sacd the other day and my wife walked in and asked in all seriousness if I was listening to a porno movie soundtrack. She is incredibly well educated, sophisticated, and can debate the symbolism in Waiting for Gadot in three languages and she thinks that be bop sounds like a porno movie soundtrack (if you listen and close your eyes it kind of does!!). My point being that she has the intellectual capabilities to not be afraid of it she just doesnt like it. Josh Fair enough. But what you've mostly proved is than one can be intelligent, educated AND incapable of understaning something all at once! I know that this is very much true for me in that I have given many hours sitting through opera after opera over a 15 year period and I for the most part DO NOT ENJOY the experience very much. I am not talking about 2-3 Operas over these 15 years--more like 2-3 per year. I have studied, listened and tried (mostly due to the obvious passion for all things opera that a good freind and colleague has shown over the years) and I JUST DON'T GET IT. And I fear that this is because I am intellectually or emotionally unable to CONNECT with the music Wagner might well have been a genius, but the man just can't hold a candle to Charlie Parker in my book!! So, I do think that anyone who can't appreciate jazz just doesn't have the proper receptors, which is probably true for your wife--just as I do not have the proper receptors for opera. But calling bebop "porno soudtrack music" is a bit much. Now Dave Koz or Kenny G on the other hand . . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomac Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 The best thing about JAZZ is that the genre offers a million options. Theres somethin there for everybody. A few years ago when ssh started the jazz thread I got hooked. I sort of liked smooth jazz but soon learned that soft bop and hard bop were great listening. I bought 82 CDs (based on recommendations by Allan) before I had one I couldnt stand. Thats a lot of music. The best thing about most of them is that I can listen to the entire album. That, for me, has never been the case with rock. I know what Craig means by random horn blowing and Im not keen on it either; at least in large doses. It aint just late Coltrane either. <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Gary mentioned live performances and hes absolutely right. Ive seen Von Freeman and Herman Riley, (tenor men) and enjoyed both immensely but while I could listen to Riley, (on LP/CD) for hours, I hardly ever spin a Von Freeman disc. Why? For me Von is too random, as Craig would say. Thats not a jab at Von or his music. Its just my preference. The guy was a treat to see live. The bottom line: I prefer jazz that makes my head go up and down more than side to side! BTW, I dont at all care for the stuff that makes your head go round in circles. [] <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomac Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Allan - how dare you mention Kenny G in a jazz thread? Sisper shame on you bro'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 The bottom line: I prefer jazz that makes my head go up and down more than side to side! BTW, I dont at all care for the stuff that makes your head go round in circles. [] <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> You mean like this: which makes a LOT more sense to me than this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomac Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 [] Precisely! But I think The Shape of Jazz to Come was your first recommendation that I really didnt care for. BTW, I was able to pick up Lem Winchester's LP from Hiroshi. That's one that will get a fair amount of play. He also had "The Return of Art Pepper" so as soon as I pick a few more out they will be on the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 "Do not fear mistakes. There are none." "Don't play what's there, play what's not there." "I'll play it and tell you what it is later." -Miles Davis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joemcten Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 I am with you. What is there to get??? I have always thought with music, you either like it or you do not. Can't get much simpler than that. My father being a drummer in bands through the 60's-early 70's exposed us to all types of music. I do not remember any "education" on his part as to how to "get it". A certain style of musics moves you or does not.... As for me, I love 50's-60's Jazz guitar from the likes of Sal Salvador,Tal Farlow,Barney Kessel,Grant Green etc. I have always loved guitar oriented music and have been a huge blues fan(100's of live shows), so making the move to digging the Jazz guys was not a leap and had no learning curve, for me that is..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Some Jazz really moves me, some doesn't. The same is true with other music genres - I, like many others would say that I like Rock and can list hundreds of bands that I truly enjoy. I can also list just as many Rock bands that I'd prefer never to hear again. Even with the bands I like, there are albums that just don't do anything for me. Classical, Blues, Soul, R&B, Country and Bluegrass - same thing. My point is that music, regardless of the genre has an emotive effect on the me that draws me to it - "if it sounds good, it is good". Finding something that I enjoy is a very exciting experience and that sensation is why I continue to explore and listen to different groups and genres of music. To simply say that that you don't "get" Jazz sounds to me like you haven't put enough effort into it. My experience with Jazz began when I found the Smithsonian Box set of Classical Jazz in a thrift store in really nice condition. I think I paid $1 for it and if it were $5 or even looked slightly played, I probably would have left it in the bin. Still, the only reason I pulled out a record was that I had just got a new cartridge and I didn't want to clean a LP or try it out on one of my "nicer" albums. I had heard Modern Jazz Quartet a couple of times at Wake Forest University when I hung out with a fellow at the college radio station so I put that side on. MJQ was pleasant enough but also on that side were Miles Davis, Sonny Rollins and Charles Mingus. It was just a few seconds into Miles' 'Summertime' when I stopped listening to the new cartridge and was mesmerized by the music. Once the side ended, I flipped the record and listened to the other side. By that point the light bulb had gone off and I then put on Record 1 and read along in the booklet as the records played. The life stories and inter-mingling of the artists throughout Jazz history was fascinating and it set me off to find and listen to as much Jazz as I could. After hearing the entire box several times, I still didn't "get" at least 40% of the music and there are artists in that box set that to this day don't do a thing for me. In fact there are very few artists from that box who I've enjoyed their entire catalogue (Sonny Rollins is the only one I can think of). I've heard Ornette Coleman's work several times over the years and he still sounds tedious and self-indulgent. While its wonderful and inspiring to listen to the greats, I'd have to say that for me, the real draw of Jazz is the live event. To watch the music essentially being created in front of me, the interactions and nuances between the players as well as my participation as an audient is an experience like no other. That participation is a real charge, it can create an energy that the players can feel and it feeds their performance which in turn reassures and reinforces the audience and its response keeps the cycle going and elevating the experience for all participants. It doesn't happen every time but every so often, on a certain night, at a certain moment I get the sensation that I am not longer watching the group, rather I am involved and intertwined in the process and I am a responsible party in the creation of the music. That's what I like most about Jazz. Sorry for the run-on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Now THAT was FUN!! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lascaladan Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 I will not even consider getting statred on this thread(when I do, the thread seems to END). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 25, 2007 Author Share Posted January 25, 2007 A funny example I was listening to a blue note sampler sacd the other day and my wife walked in and asked in all seriousness if I was listening to a porno movie soundtrack. She is incredibly well educated, sophisticated, and can debate the symbolism in Waiting for Gadot in three languages and she thinks that be bop sounds like a porno movie soundtrack (if you listen and close your eyes it kind of does!!). My point being that she has the intellectual capabilities to not be afraid of it she just doesnt like it. Josh Okay now my interest has officially peaked LOL!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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