KLF 30s/bright room/HT receiver

[klipschlover]

Hi everyone. It has been quite a while since my last post and I have a new question. I am interested in upgrading my HT receiver and am seeking advice. My current 5.1 setup utilizes KLF 30s as mains, KLF C7 center, two JBL studio monitors (previously my mains) for surrounds, and a SVS 20-39 sub. The room is very bright...wood flooring and no damping window or wall treatments. I would appreciate some input from those with a similar setup who feel like they have found an excellent match between their HT receiver and this type of setup. Any other input/advice will also be greatly appreciated! Thanks, in advance.

[DrWho]

I've found that treating the room is going to yield the most impact - especially in situations like you're describing. Hardcore acoustical treatment isn't for everyone, but there are some tricks for every level of involvement.

As far as receiver, what do you currently own?

[klipschlover]

I currently own a Kenwood Sovereign VR-5700 (got a deal on it from local dealer who was discontinuing carrying them). It is a great receiver, but I have had some problems with it so it has been shipped for repair and back once already. Now, it apprears to have a short which makes it necessary for me to wiggle my digital optical cable a little in order to get sound when I play a dvd (frustrating!) Of course, I tried changing the cable itself, but it didnt solve the problem.

As far as room treatment goes, I am looking at installing some cellular blinds on the three windows in the back of the room. This would eliminate glare on my tv and HOPEFULLY also some of the reflected sound. Any other ideas? Probably, some of the problem with the room acoustics is due to the large permanent openings to the foyer and kitchen...cant change that!

Thanks for your response!

[wuzzzer]

Not wanting to sound rude, Kenwood probably isn't the best sonic match for Klipsch. Higher quality brands such as Denon, Harman/Kardon, Yamaha tend to be a better match and help the bright sound.

Have you looked in to the option of acoustic foam? It doesn't take very much to make a big impact on sound quality.

Also, how close are your main speakers to the side walls? Do you have them angled in towards your listening position at all?

[redtop]

I am not aware of any receiver, at any price, that will overcome bad room acoustics. It is bright sounding now, then what you are probably hearing is some sort of harmonic "echo" that affects the high end of the sonic spectrum. I recently completed a DIY theater room with acoustic treatment. It was my first experience with acoustically treating a room. The improvement is remarkable. It is not marginal and worth every penny I put into it. For about the same or less price of a new receiver ($400-600), you can put up as many as 8-10 attractive (WAF friendly) sound absorbing panels. There are several sources that are generally about $60 per panel if I remember correctly.

My recommendation is treat your room first, change equipment second. That's what i will do from now on...[]

Hope this helps.

[klipschlover]

Hi wuzzzer! Thanks for your reply, and you didn't sound rude at all. I am currently looking at the option of acoustic foam, but there is a lot out there to choose from. More imporant than that, I do not know WHERE it needs to be placed in my room. But, I have no doubt that room treatment is what I need to correct the echo-ey, boomy sound that I have. I also want to correct the low freq loss. I believe that I should not have to run my sub as loud as I do in order to hear it the way I want to.

To answer your question, my mains are unevenly placed and may be too far from the wall. My sub occupies the corner, and my TV and mains are in front of that, catty-cornered and pointed toward the main listening position. This arrangement utilizes the longer axis of my 18.5' X 23.5" den and makes the main viewing position 13' from the TV. The center of the LF is 21" from the wall, and RF is 18" from the wall; neither speaker is parallel to the wall behind. The mains are toed in to the main listening position. Of course, I have a fireplace and two large permanent openings that take up valuable wall space and limit my options for room arrangement.

Do you know of anyone on the forum or elsewhere who can advise me on acoustic materials and placement in my room? I will be happy to supply a diagram of my room.

[klipschlover]

Thanks for your reply Redtop. Where do you find attractive sound-absorbing panels?

[rcarlton]

I use ATS Acoustics. Another good source to learn about tweaking your sub is the Home Theater Shack.

[redtop]

I would start here... http://sensiblesoundsolutions.com/ They offer raw material, design services and I believe they have added finished panels. Don't quote me on that last one though. The guy (Bryan Pape) who did my HT acoustic design is affiliated with them now.

Hope that helps.

[oldbuckster]

Get the SUB out of the corner...first off ................... ever consider some rug or throw rugs to deaden the sound............a new receiver will not change room problems............

[DrWho]

What are the dimensions of the room? And what does the ceiling look like? And then what are the dimensions for the areas marked foyer and hallway? Are these completely open to the room?

If you are indeed interested in acoustical treatment, then the best first step to take is to measure the room and see where your actual problems reside. And then it should just be a matter of selecting the right material for the job.

[klipschlover]

Dr. Who, thank you for your reply. The den dimensions are 23'5"L X 18'5"W X 10'H. The foyer opening is 5' wide and the foyer dimensions are 10'5" X 4'. The hall dimensions are 8'7" X 3'2". The foyer and hall are open (no doors). All of the flooring in the den, foyer, and hall is wood. The ceiling is a regular texurized drywall?, I think (nothing fancy).

Due to the bright and distracting light that floods into the den from the lights that surround the front door, I have been thinking that I need some kind of drape to cover the foyer opening, or blackout window treatment. This light is brighter than the TV screen and seriously interferes with daytime television watching. This weekend, I burned Ethan's test tones (from the RealTraps web site) on a CD and played them in my den. I walked around the den and foyer listening to the LF sound and was found the results to be dramatic! As predicted, the bass is very strong in the 3 corners where 2 walls and the ceiling meet. I also discovered that it is quite loud in the corner of the foyer where the opening to the hall is located. Of course, it is all but null at my primary listening position (no wonder I blew the driver in my SVS 20-39 shortly after receiving it!) Do you think that a heavy drape covering the foyer opening would attenuate the LF sound loss at that point in addition to eliminating the glaring light?

The test tone CD is the only way I have to "test" my room. After using it this weekend, I believe the first thing I should do to address room acoustics is correct the LF loss in the corners of the room. Of course, I know that I must also address the reflected sound. I am currently looking at some of the commercial traps that are available. The price varies a great deal, but it appears that many of the manufacturers use either fiberglass or mineral wool for absorptive material. I have read that the acoustic properties of the two are nearly identical, so why pay sooo much more for a product like RealTraps, as opposed to the GIK or ATS Acoustic traps? Is there a particular product that you recommend, and why?

Thank you in advance, for any advice or information you share.

[jamesV]

I might be wrong be I think the good Dr. is talking about a spl meter, http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103667&cp=&sr=1&origkw=spl+meter&kw=spl+meter&parentPage=search.. I am planning on purchasing one this week to help my setup.

James

[DrWho]

Do you have a computer / laptop that is easily accessible from this

room? If so, there is free measurement software out there that you

might be interested in. You could get away with an SPL meter from radio

shack for the lower frequencies, but it would be better to purchase a

calibrated microphone (~$50). You might need a fancy sound card or

mic-preamp, but that'll be around $60, so it's still not that huge of

investment considering how much headache it saves later on down the

road. Anyways, the measurement you want to take is an impulse response

from the listening position. This will show you every reflection that

is arriving at the listening position so that you can go back and

calculate where you need to employ absorbtion / diffusion while also

giving you the ability to see any type of graph you want to see

(frequency response, ETC, waterfalls, spectral decay, etc...)

As far as the initial bass response you've been hearing with that test

tone CD - you're pretty much guaranteed to notice a huge improvement by

putting traps in those wall/ceiling corners. Do you have an idea as to

which frequencies are most affected? This will determine how thick the

bass trapping needs to be...

In order for absorbtion to be effective, it needs to be at least 1/4

wavelength thick. Otherwise, the sound isn't in the material long

enough to get absorbed. This means that any kind of window shades,

drapes, or covering that foyer opening with a curtain isn't going to

have any effect on the lower frequencies (where the wavelengths are on

the order of 10+ feet ). A heavy curtain there will at best affect

frequencies above 5kHz - and that's gonna be a very heavy curtain.

One thing you might experiment with, would be to build a very very

thick curtain in the areas you were thinking about....to the point that

you can fill the space inbetween with fiberglass. I would imagine your

wall at these openings in about 6" thick, so it sholdn't be too

intrusive to construct a 6" thick curtain. Heck, you might even get

away with 8" or so...The only issue here is that you want to make sure

that you actually want a lot of absorbtion in that spot - which can't

really be determined until you measure the room. I would also worry

about issues of maintaining a symmetrical stereo image...which means

you should do something of similar magnitude on the left wall in your

drawing (by the fireplace).

And one last comment about acoustical treatment...you don't want to go

gung ho on the absorbtion. The more you add, the more it sounds like an

anechoic chamber and eventually you'll cross a threshold where the

sound suddenly goes to crap - and it's probably going to be worse than

your current situation. So to avoid the anechoic sound, you want to try

to implement diffusion whenever possible. Diffusion is essentially the

process of randomly spreading the sound as it bounces off its complex

surface. You are probably getting a lot of slapback echo with all those

hard bare surfaces, which is usually the biggest source of room's

sounding overly bright. You don't necessarily want to just randomize

the reflections in the room, but rather you're trying to spread out the

intitial signal delay to be wider than the Haas effect (aka, you want

as long a time as possible between the direct sound and the first

reflections that arrive at the listening position - as you can imagine,

this is very difficult to do in a small room).

Since your ceiling is high, you are a prime candidate for the RPG Skyline diffusors:

http://www.rpginc.com/products/skyline/index.htm

I've been in a few rooms with this along the ceiling and a bare

wood floor and I really liked the sound. The dimensions would be about

the same you are dealing with too. With a little dramatic colored

lighting they can be made to look extremely cool too. I'm not sure what

your decor scheme is, but it totally goes with the more modernist feel.

Anyways, them's just a few ideas. I'm by no means an acoustical expert

so please take it all with a grain of salt. Oh, I almost

forgot....Ethan sent off all his products along with some others for

testing in the labs to compare the relative effectiveness:

http://www.realtraps.com/data.htm

So apparently there is some level of difference between products...Your guess is as good as mine.

And then a few other comments...

What do you consider the main listening position? Would this be the

chair with the otto in front of it? One thing you might consider would

be to move the Right Surround speaker up along the right wall - even up

as high as the table next to the love seat...

Also, is the picture representative of where the mains are located? I

would try to spread them out as wide as possible isntead of tucking

them up close to the TV. Having the sub in the corner behind the TV

like that is generally going to sound better when you cross it over

lower - like say 40Hz and below. The reason for this is because the

sound that makes it out around the sides and top of the TV will behave

like you have multiple subwoofers spaced at more than 1/4 wavelength

apart (1/4 wavelength of 90Hz is about 3 feet, and about 5 feet at

60Hz). This results in lobing of the off-axis response and dramtically

changes the way the sub and room interact.

While I'm on the topic of your subwoofer, how did you dial it in? You might find this article helpful:

http://www.klipschcorner.com/Articles.aspx?guid=feb5d669-1513-426d-a8fc-29f8aa90869f

Would it be possible to rotate things a bit in the room? Slide the LF

down a bit, move the TV left and rotate a bit counter-clockwise. Move

the RF towards the gallery opening and put the sub between the RF and

the TV. And then move the listening positions a bit counter-clockwise

to compensate for the viewing angles and getting things back to

symmetrical. The more you can turn things, the better.

It's free to move things around and it's hard to tell from your picture

how optomized and to scale everything is so I might be full of crap too

[] I've probably said too much, but hopefully it will spur some

conversation.

[klipschlover]

Thanks again, Dr. Who! I have read a lot about room measurement since your last reply. Sounds like it is a great tool for identifying the acoustic problems in my room, however I haven't found instructions on how to do it without a laptop. Is there such a thing as Room Measurement for Dummies? Pictures might help! LOL. My PC (no laptop, unfortunately) is located in my kitchen.

Slap back echo? Yes, definately. A hand clap or just walking through the room with hard sole shoes removes any doubt.

As for the main seating position, it is the couch that is located about 4' from the windows. I took your advice and moved the mains out away from the TV as much as space allows. I checked my sub setting: it is crossed over @ 60Hz (and thank you for the link to the article on how to dial in a sub). Perhaps I should dial it down to 40Hz, as the freq response of my mains is 36Hz-20kHz +/-3dB.

Rotating A/V equipment & furnishings? Not really an option. The A/V equipment fairly well fills up the corner it now occupies, with approximately 12 inches between the TV and mains.

If anyone can chime in and point me toward some room measurement instructions for lay people, I would greatly appreciate it! What I have read thus far seems to be written for those with a great deal more knowledge about acoustics and measurement equipment than I currently posess, and has made me feel "technically challenged" in this area! The only measurement equipment I have is a RS SPL meter, which I used to set speaker volume.

Thanks to all for your help! The question that I originally posted has returned much valuable information, and identified the most important and overlooked factor that affects my system performance. Undoubtedly, room treatment will be the best bang-for-the-buck investment that I can make in order to improve my listening pleasure! Now, to figure out how to do it...

[Arky]

Who

I sure wish you lived closer to Ark. Why don't you transfer to the UofA, that would get you out of the nasty weather too.

[DrWho]

Thanks again, Dr. Who! I have read a lot about room measurement since your last reply. Sounds like it is a great tool for identifying the acoustic problems in my room, however I haven't found instructions on how to do it without a laptop. Is there such a thing as Room Measurement for Dummies? Pictures might help! LOL. My PC (no laptop, unfortunately) is located in my kitchen.

Well technically you could use really long signal cables and still use the computer in your kitchen. Here's a very easy free program with step by step instructions and pictures:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

The only hard part about using it is setting it up and calibrating your sound card. The forums over at home theater shack are also very helpful and they will even have calibration files to use with your SPL meter. Since you are doing full bandwidth treatment (not just low frequencies), you would benefit greatly from a calibrated microphone, which will be about a $100 investment.

I'm also putting together a room acoustics measuring toolkit, which will include a laptop and all the necessary hardware pre-calibrated that I can rent out for a minimal price and ship around. For most people, measuring should be a one-time deal, so they have no need to invest in a full blown measurement rig. Like you said, there is a rather steep learning curve and this would be a step towards reducing that curve and ensuring accurate results. All I'm waiting on right now is a cheap laptop and then I'll build it all into a box that can be shipped. Does that sound like something you'd be interested in?

Slap back echo? Yes, definately. A hand clap or just walking through the room with hard sole shoes removes any doubt.

As for the main seating position, it is the couch that is located about 4' from the windows. I took your advice and moved the mains out away from the TV as much as space allows. I checked my sub setting: it is crossed over @ 60Hz (and thank you for the link to the article on how to dial in a sub). Perhaps I should dial it down to 40Hz, as the freq response of my mains is 36Hz-20kHz +/-3dB.

Well it's free to try so why not?

Now, to figure out how to do it...

That's exactly how I feel too!

Btw, lest someone accuse you of being a gear head, don't forget to enjoy the tunes during all of this craziness. Afterall, enjoying the music is still the goal - the "science" is a just a means to that end.

[IB Slammin]

Who

I sure wish you lived closer to Ark. Why don't you transfer to the UofA, that would get you out of the nasty weather too.

What Arky? Weather hasn't been nasty enough for ya down here?[]

tc

[DrWho]

Who

I sure wish you lived closer to Ark. Why don't you transfer to the UofA, that would get you out of the nasty weather too.

lol - considering all the credits that might get lost in the transfer process and the extra semester or two I would need to take (on top of the extra ones I'm taking now for the same reason), I think it would be more feasible to swing by for a weekend. Whereabouts in 'our kansas' you located? The pilgrimage will prob be in Hope next year, so I could just drive down a few days early...

[klipschlover]

Dr. Who! Yes, your room acoustic measurement package is something that I would definately be interested in, providing the budget allows. Please let me know when it is available and how much it costs to rent.

I am sooo excited about what I have learned on this forum that I placed my order today for a pair of GIK tri-traps. I will place them in the front corners. It is a start. Just wish I could get them today! Bryan Pape recommended that I do floor to ceiling tri-traps in the front corners, to begin with. Guess I will check the top of the tri-corners with my SPL meter after installation and decide whether to order another pair. Of course, room reflection is next. Can't wait to "hear" what happens when I start treating the room!

I understand that too much absorption will make the room dead. No problem...makes perfect sense, even to a lay person. For now, I will start with some corner treatment, where I know a lot of LF energy is concentrated.

Thanks again for your advice. I look forward to hearing from you when you have your room acoustic package ready.