AKFEST07 WEEKEND at PICKY'S: (Attendees & Detroit Area Klipschers)

[NOSValves]

Well every lascala I've measured poops out at 100Hz [] Whether or not that is low enough is going to be dependant on the music you listen to. I personally prefer for the melody to be present in my music [][]

Not trying to be mean here but honestly I think you need to quit measuring or placing so much emphasis on measurements and just listen to the music. Your comment above just bleeds of preconceived notions getting in the way of what you hear. If you think Lascalas always poop out at 100hZ your way off base. One of the most common comments I get at shows or in my shop is about how taunt, realistic and low the bass extention is for Lascalas. I honestly have no desire for lower bass response out of my system in anyway.

Craig

[Audio Flynn]

I told Craig before I left that they were the most solid state sounding tube amps I've ever heard - I hope he took that in the good way I intended, lol...you know, a best of both worlds kind of thing.

Honestly I don't even remember you saying that but coming from a staunch SS guy I guess its a compliment similar to a Tube guy saying an SS amp sound like tubes [] I do remember you stating that it was the first tube amp you actually would like to own or something to that effect which shocked me.

The only part of your reveiw of my room that surpises me is the bass response of the Lascala's comment. I just do not understand folks hung up on the below 40 hz bass reproduction. But hey we all have are own personal preferences.

I'm not sure if this is your first audio show like this or not. But realize the last thing you should do is to take the sound you hear from any of the systems at these types of events too seriuosly since its never ideal and your always destracted. Like you stated you should always bring the recordings you prefer. I find the general comments about other systems at the show kind of surprising but then I didn't visit all the rooms so maybe they were mostly all bad sounding? I find the angle you seem to have taking when listening to systems as kind of interesting you seem to be looking for faults in certain frequencies rather then listen to the music in its entirety. When I listen I look for what "I like" not what "I don't like" with over all balance being one of the most important factors. Does it sound like music or a machine is always my first question.

Craig

Orchestra music or piano works best for me as a music reference because I hear them at least once a month. Is the piano "in the room" with me or does it sound like a machine?

========================

Well every lascala I've measured poops out at 100Hz

Whether or not that is low enough is going to be dependant on the music

you listen to. I personally prefer for the melody to be present in my

music

========================

=======================

LS not being able to perform from 40-100 hz I have not heard. Melody exclusively under 100 hz? Not certain that the defintion is constrained by frequency.

In music, a melody, also tune, voice, or line, is a series of linear events or a succession, not a simultaneity as in a chord (see harmony). However, this succession must contain change of some kind and be perceived as a single entity (possibly Gestalt) to be called a melody. Most specifically this includes patterns of changing pitches and durations, while most generally it includes any interacting patterns of changing events or quality.

[Deang]

One of the most common comments I get at shows or in my shop is about how taunt, realistic and low the bass extention is ...

They weren't talking about your speakers, but about your big mouth.

I don't get the 100Hz thing either. It's a 100Hz horn, but set up properly, easily has its -3dB point below 50Hz. In some cases -- may even go lower.

"Hash" comes from solid grate amps, cheap CD players, and crappy caps in the network. Poorly recorded material has it too, and horns exasperate it.

[DrWho]

I have always felt that lascalas never had bass and will always feel that way. It wasn't until very recently that I have been able to measure it. I am hardly biased by measurements, nor do I let measurements dictate what I hear. It is interesting to note that the measurements always correlate to what I hear, but that's to be expected when interpreting them correctly (since interpretation is the result of what one hears). All the comments from others talking about the "realistic" low bass extension of lascalas is simply the result of untrained ears. These people are hearing the higher order harmonics of the instrument and their ears are filling in the missing gaps. OR, they are simply impressed by strong dynamic output above 100Hz...and I agree, you can get by with this on a lot of music - especially older music where this was more the norm for playback systems.

And yes, I know what a melody is - and I have plenty of music where the melody gets lost on lascalas and even khorns. Why is this such a difficult concept to accept?

To be fair, the lascala is 6dB down from 50-90Hz...a sort of weird plateau thing where the driver is behaving like a direct radiator. Tucked into the corner, ~50Hz is the -3dB point of this plateau, which compared to the rest of the speaker would effectively be a -9dB point. I think that correlates fairly well with the +-5dB that Klipsch rates the speaker. I might be off by a few Hz and 1dB here and there, but it's the general behavior of the speaker. Really, I don't care to argue the point because it is something easily measured (and not debatable unless of course someone wants to provide measurements that show otherwise). If you claim the measurements don't correlate to what you hear, then you aren't interpreting the measurements correctly. Maybe you're associating things with the wrong frequency bands and/or likely being fooled by your own ears filling in the gaps, or whatever - I dunno. I would be extremely curious to know how people know what any frequency sounds like if measurements were never involved...someone somewhere had to assign the number. Maybe y'all are referring to 50 cycles per half a second?...let's make up a new unit called the Lascala Hz (LHz) that is the cycles per quarter second so that the lascala bass bin is a 25 LHz horn. I can't really hear below 25Hz so let's call it a day.

[IndyKlipschFan]

I smell a pi$$ing match, and I do not think that is the case implied here..

This is my only 3rd - 4th one of these... as a hobby group thing.. Even though for years I went to CES in LA Vegas, and when CES used to be in Chicago.. Add to that CEDIA..2-3 years too.. I see both sides of this debate. I remember in 1982 when Sony introduced the CD. (you could actually hear the tape hiss or record dropped as the needle hit the vinyl.. re recorded on the CD.. hahaha Go figure!! I also remember when HDTV came out and they said.. 5 years every one will have one of these too...... I think that was the mid 80's too?? Go Figure. LOL

At best, in any room like this, your not going to get a very good feeling of the true sound. You also have to agree to buy into the hobby side of this for some people. I explained it to Dr Who.... Think of a guy and his best friend....these guys love audio... they love to tinker with audio things.. And look.. It is certainly safer than cheating on their wives or being a drunk or drug user... They have no intention of being a 20 million dollar company.. They build 2-6 pairs of speakers a year.. If they sell 2 pairs they break even.. 3 or more...they make some money too. e.g. Great fun hobby!!

You have to listen to the "in the nows of life".. much like "living your life in the now," too.

BTW doc... How low do my subs go now? I look forward to further tweaks to my HT too!

[Audio Flynn]

One of the most common comments I get at shows or in my shop is about how taunt, realistic and low the bass extention is ...

They weren't talking about your speakers, but about your big mouth.

I don't get the 100Hz thing either. It's a 100Hz horn, but set up properly, easily has its -3dB point below 50Hz. In some cases -- may even go lower.

"Hash" comes from solid grate amps, cheap CD players, and crappy caps in the network. Poorly recorded material has it too, and horns exasperate it.

Right on Dean.

Wish I had more time to point out the details of the foolishly purported facts I read here.

[rcarlton]

Ron: Since you were in town: It would have been great to have you come by the house too with the rest of the gang! It's too bad things didn't work out that way. Dr. Who told me he met Clarence at the AKFEST, too. I had no clue he was there until after we left and Doc told me. Clarence was not at our house, however. -Glenn

picky,

Was not in town. Here in Dallas following all the fun via the internet. March tends to be too cold and wet for me in Michigan. Did drink some Vernors and wondered what happened with the Redwings the other night.

Oops! Sorry Ron. I made the assumption that you were actually at the AKFEST because you posted an additional photo of "Mrs.NOS Valves" on the other thread. My bad!

How ironic: Dizrotus brought over a 12-pack of Vernors on Friday and I've been drinking it all weekend! LOL

I missed the Wings game the other night: Was too busy listening and watching stuff with the guys.

Picky,

I linked the picture of Mrs. NOS Valves from the AK website[A].

At least the Wings won last night.

[picky]

Several people have asked me to display a list of the DVDs that I used for the demos I showed the guys who came over the house this weekend. You can find the short list by following this LINK over to the Home Theater forum.

rcarlton: I see about the photo now. Thanks for explaining. Go Wings! Lots of fights last night, too!

[dkp]

Several people have asked me to display a list of the DVDs that I used for the demos I showed the guys who came over the house this weekend. You can find the short list by following this LINK over to the Home Theater forum.

rcarlton: I see about the photo now. Thanks for explaining. Go Wings! Lots of fights last night, too!

Darn, missed another one!!! I have yet to watch a single game this year!!! I am really hoping to get this theater done before the playoffs start, but I'm not so sure about that!!! I put on the second coat of mud 2nite, so we'll see...

Did Bertuzzi happen to get into the fray?

-David

[picky]

dkp: Bertuzzi didn't fight in the first two periods that I can remember. But I missed the third period because we were watching one of our favorite shows:'24'. The big fight was between Lija and Moen of the Ducks in the first period.

I hope you get it finished in time for the playoffs, too! But, if you don't, you'll have to come down and meet some of my other friends and watch some of the games with us. We're all huge fans! -Glenn

[dkp]

dkp: Bertuzzi didn't fight in the first two periods that I can remember. But I missed the third period because we were watching one of our favorite shows:'24'. The big fight was between Lija and Moen of the Ducks in the first period.

I hope you get it finished in time for the playoffs, too! But, if you don't, you'll have to come down and meet some of my other friends and watch some of the games with us. We're all huge fans! -Glenn

Sounds great! Hey, sent you a PM...

David

[NOSValves]

I have always felt that lascalas never had bass and will always feel that way. It wasn't until very recently that I have been able to measure it. I am hardly biased by measurements, nor do I let measurements dictate what I hear. It is interesting to note that the measurements always correlate to what I hear, but that's to be expected when interpreting them correctly (since interpretation is the result of what one hears). All the comments from others talking about the "realistic" low bass extension of lascalas is simply the result of untrained ears. These people are hearing the higher order harmonics of the instrument and their ears are filling in the missing gaps. OR, they are simply impressed by strong dynamic output above 100Hz...and I agree, you can get by with this on a lot of music - especially older music where this was more the norm for playback systems.

And yes, I know what a melody is - and I have plenty of music where the melody gets lost on lascalas and even khorns. Why is this such a difficult concept to accept?

To be fair, the lascala is 6dB down from 50-90Hz...a sort of weird plateau thing where the driver is behaving like a direct radiator. Tucked into the corner, ~50Hz is the -3dB point of this plateau, which compared to the rest of the speaker would effectively be a -9dB point. I think that correlates fairly well with the +-5dB that Klipsch rates the speaker. I might be off by a few Hz and 1dB here and there, but it's the general behavior of the speaker. Really, I don't care to argue the point because it is something easily measured (and not debatable unless of course someone wants to provide measurements that show otherwise). If you claim the measurements don't correlate to what you hear, then you aren't interpreting the measurements correctly. Maybe you're associating things with the wrong frequency bands and/or likely being fooled by your own ears filling in the gaps, or whatever - I dunno. I would be extremely curious to know how people know what any frequency sounds like if measurements were never involved...someone somewhere had to assign the number. Maybe y'all are referring to 50 cycles per half a second?...let's make up a new unit called the Lascala Hz (LHz) that is the cycles per quarter second so that the lascala bass bin is a 25 LHz horn. I can't really hear below 25Hz so let's call it a day.

Your so off base its just not worth the effort to educate you. If you think that any Lascala properly setup in the corners is truly down 6db from 50 to 90hz you completely dropped on your head. Maybe your measuring equipment/setup is defective or maybe its your ears. It's fairly obvious that you have zero faith in your own hearing or are not mature enough to like something without some electrical measuring device to tell you that you should like it.

I hate to state the obvious but when you were in my room with Lascalas that you obvious "think" are horrible speakers you professed that you wanted to own one of my amplifiers. Now I would have to ask if the Lascala speakers are as bad as you profess then what in the heck would make you want the amp that was driving them? You sir have a confused mind and need to garnish some more experience. You make about zero sense here.

Craig

[mowntnbkr]

I don't have any expertise, but it seems too many people can sit and recite all kinds of technical jargon and they get lost in the whole purpose.........to enjoy the music. Architects make it look good on paper but in the real world it sometimes just doesn't jive and they can't understand why. I think the same thing happens here. We have all this state of the art equipment and we ( I include myself) we have a tendency to believe what it says, but if we throw out what it tells us and just listen, we find the two don't necessarily coincide. my .02

[meagain]

Well, isn't it widely accepted that a LaScala doesn't go as low as a Khorn? I mean, I have both here and the khorns give a certain sumthin' sumthin'. I'd think if a poll was run, there would be more LaScala owners using a sub than Khorn people? So why is it a problem that Who feels they lack bass?

[colterphoto1]

Back to the topic of Doc's BIG WEEKEND.. (ahem)

btw, everyone here is entitled to their opinion so let's not get ugly, ok? Please note that in the following measurment scenario that Doc also continued on to make observations without equipment. I personally think he's becoming more astute and capable of communicating his observations and measurements. He's a great friend and good Forum member, he's helped a lot of people already and he's only 23. So LAY OFF, mmmk?

Here's what we did on Sunday afternoon after rewiring my rack with the Yamaha RXV2600 and DVD player (you would not believe the bale of unused or unneeded wires we pulled out) looks nice and neat now! [Y][8-|]

Doc had his test setup so I thought of something to test. I'd helped Trey measure the LF of the MWM bins outside at Klipsch on Saturday, so we followed suit and lined up 4 different 'Heresy' models on my driveway, struck a chalk line at 2 meters away and commenced to test....

We did clearly see that the vented designs ( HIP and 250) had more output but higher LF rolloff. The 201 had a rattle at 375 Hz which we tracked to not a blown driver but the tweeter driver was physically loose from its horn. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Some of the preferences were a matter of age. The HIPs had belonged to a professional drummer and used on stands as his monitor system. They are pretty ragged. The 201s still have the protective plastic on their logo plates and are pristine and unabused, their vocal clarity in 500-2K was astonishing.

After running two sweeps on each cabinet we wanted to do a listening analysis. Why? Just for practice. Mike Bentz (Dr Who on the Forum) is a great kid, a junior at U of I, VP of his AES society, and future Klipsch hopeful. So we just have fun with the hobby. I have a <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Niles box with volume pots that we have wired to a pigtail of 6 cables with banana plugs. We call it the Colter Comparator! So we gave them all a listen, then volume matched by ear, check with db meter (not bad, within 1.5 db), then gave a volume compensated comparison. The 201 and 250 fared well, the old H not bad- probably worn out network. The HIP was shabby but loud as hell!

[gonzp]

As was demonstrated at last years AK Fest, LaScala's DO have bass. I put a track on in the room that rattled the plaster out of the walls.

[Piranha]

yippee, colter to the rescue!!! [Y]

All is right in the world again. []

Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya! [{][}]

[garymd]

I was told that Mac system (which costs as much as the average single family home) sounded like crap!

BTW Craig - That is the 2nd UGLIEST Lascala I've ever seen!!!

Who loves ya baby???

[meagain]

Craig - Any idea where these type of transformer covers come from on page 5, post 890780-ish?

I sort of wouldn't mind finding something like that to put over the grey blocks..

[Parrot]

Someone thought the Martinelli horn on Craig's bastardized La Scala was ringing, but it turned out to be the phone.