AKFEST07 WEEKEND at PICKY'S: (Attendees & Detroit Area Klipschers)

[LarryC]

Who,

I've not read every last post in here, but is it possible that you are confusing the absence of extremely low-frequency movie sound effects and extremely low pitched electronic music with a fall-off below about 54 Hz? Or 100 Hz, which I think must be inaccurate? Anyone would need a sub with that kind of crap, er, stuff, and the K-horn would only add some of it back.

The only thing that would be missing from La Scalas for me would be the bottom octave of the piano, which is not exactly "melodic," and the bottom 1/3rd octave from string basses and 2/3rds octave from pipe organ 16-foot ranks. Except for those, that's plenty of bass depth for acoustic music. Even the lowest notes on cellos and bassoons don't go below 60 - 65 Hz. Also, would the La Scala II's measure differently with the side-panel resonances reduced, leaving the bottom-most notes more prominent relatively speaking?

I think measurements are a second-rate way of telling what is being heard. I always trust my ears first, and I think many here do, too. If measurements contradict, then I ignore the measurements. If they verify, I feel more assured. []

[picky]

Simply put; in my case, if I like what I'm hearing, be it from a movie or an audio-only presentation, then I'm happy. Period! That's all that really matters to me.

In defense of measurements: Ever since I finished our theater in October of 2004, I have loved the sound I've been getting from our room so much, that I have never felt the need to tweak it any further. And, I've gotten constant validation that I am not alone in what I am hearing from every visitor to our theater. Now that I have had the room measured and the measurements have confirmed that what I am hearing and perceive as perfection isn't just me, I now feel as if I have gotten total validation of my efforts. Had the measurements disputed what I believed to be perfection, then I really don't know how I'd feel then. I'd still be happy with the sound but either doubtful of the measurements' accuracy or perhaps, betrayed by my own hearing? It's a tough call.

The bottom line here is: Measurements or not: I am completely satisfied with my room full of Klipsch Reference Series Speakers and how my room responds in concert with them! It's a nice plus to know the measurements confirmed this for me.

-Glenn

[DrWho]

I've not read every last post in here, but is it possible that you are confusing the absence of extremely low-frequency movie sound effects and extremely low pitched electronic music with a fall-off below about 54 Hz? Or 100 Hz, which I think must be inaccurate? Anyone would need a sub with that kind of crap, er, stuff, and the K-horn would only add some of it back.

The thought has crossed my mind, which is why I (and others) have run waterfall plots of the music recorded on the CD. I think one thing being confused here is that 6dB down doesn't mean that those frequencies are inaudible. The psychoacoustics articles I've read commonly refer to -20dB as being the inaudible point. Nevertheless, I don't think anyone will argue that 6dB down is going to sound the same as being 0dB down. Preferring one or the other is completely subjective...In light of the big picture, I would prefer the engineers in the studio to take care of any 6dB down parts that enhance the sound so that I can have a flat system at home and trust that it will be played back as intended...

The only thing that would be missing from La Scalas for me would be the bottom octave of the piano, which is not exactly "melodic," and the bottom 1/3rd octave from string basses and 2/3rds octave from pipe organ 16-foot ranks. Except for those, that's plenty of bass depth for acoustic music. Even the lowest notes on cellos and bassoons don't go below 60 - 65 Hz. Also, would the La Scala II's measure differently with the side-panel resonances reduced, leaving the bottom-most notes more prominent relatively speaking?

How do you define missing? I think I addressed it above, but there is a difference between missing and lacking or whatever words one wants to use to describe the sound. I personally prefer the more agressive and darker sounding acoustic music which often entails all of the instruments getting heavy into their bottom frequencies. But then again, I don't listen to much "acoustic music" at home...

I think measurements are a second-rate way of telling what is being heard. I always trust my ears first, and I think many here do, too. If measurements contradict, then I ignore the measurements. If they verify, I feel more assured. []

I feel exactly the same way, except for a minor tweek....any contradiction means I'm not interpreting the measurements correctly. Is not the contradiction between interpretations and observations the entity that furthers the science?

[DrWho]

The bottom line here is: Measurements or not: I am completely satisfied with my room full of Klipsch Reference Series Speakers and how my room responds in concert with them!

And how many hours of music/movies did we enjoy before even pulling out the measurements? And then how many hours afterwards of the same enjoyment? If the measurements were crap, I would have burned my suitcase []

I forget if I already said it on the forum, but thanks for having me over. I really enjoyed everything []

[picky]

Mike: You are absolutely correct: We did listen to hours and hours of stuff first. In fact, we were enjoying what we heard so much that I had to remind you to take your measurments before the rest of the guests arrived!

You were a perfect guest, Mike. Thanks for coming out and thanks for taking the measurements for me. I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of the charts including the waterfalls. Of course, you'll have to explain everything to me! -Glenn

[DrWho]

Yea, I still need to get all the measurements from Colter's off the laptop too...and in case Roger hasn't caught on, I put his plot in the powered subwoofer section. Maybe Roger will comment on the problem we solved using just our ears too []

[Rivendell61]

A few months ago Who says musical infomation exists at 10 hz and I demonstrate no manufacture writes a spec for microphones less than 20 hz and no industrial open reel tape recorder manufacturer (Ampex or Studer) specs there recorders below 20 hz.

Not true.

Perhaps the best, best known, and most widely used microphone for high quality studio recording is the Bruel & Kjaer 4006. I'm listening to one right now via a Channel Classics recording (Pieter Wispelwey/Dejan Lazic: Beethoven, Complete Sonatas and Variations for Piano and Cello).

The TL (transformerless) version is flat (plus or minus 2 dB) from 15HZ-20kHz.

Mark

[NOSValves]

Mike: You are absolutely correct: We did listen to hours and hours of stuff first. In fact, we were enjoying what we heard so much that I had to remind you to take your measurments before the rest of the guests arrived!

You were a perfect guest, Mike. Thanks for coming out and thanks for taking the measurements for me. I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of the charts including the waterfalls. Of course, you'll have to explain everything to me! -Glenn

I agree completely he was a joy in person. The problems surface when he's sitting behind a keyboard portraying himself as audio god. Happens all the time folks get behind that old keyboard and the personality takes a huge turn for the worse.

Craig

[DrWho]

So after the AK Fest on Saturday, Glenn took me back to his place where

we chatted for another 2 hours before I left for Indy. It was a smooth

drive apart from some crazy fog and me mistakingly thinking I was

coming in on I65....Colter was able to navigate me back towards his

place without any difficulty. It's crazy how well he knows his town.

Upon

arriving at Mike's, he made the ritual comments about the "awesomeness"

of the interior of my car and we unloaded the pro heresy speakers that

Neil transferred to my car Friday night. We also brought in all 14 of

the full-range speakers Neil gave me, which are going to be used for a

few experiments with the AES here on campus. Mike added two other

speakers he had laying around to the mix, bringing it to a total of 16

drivers to

play with. Big thanks to you guys for the generousity....I'll

definitely

be keeping you guys up to date with everything we do. Speaking of

which, what rear loaded bass horn design were you going with Neil? Some

of the guys are interested in this style speaker and since there's so

many with baffles already mounted I think it'd be interesting to try a

design that I know someone else likes (rather than mess with the

ambiguity of one of our own designs).

Once we got everything

inside, Mike and I took to figuring out the speaker stands that came

with the speakers. Apparently there was some kind of extension pole

thing, but we couldn't figure out how one would ever go about using

it...It's kinda hard to describe without pictures - maybe Colter will

chime in. And then Colter was showing off some other stands he had

acquired somewhere that make mounting the speakers way easier. There's

an awesome locking/extending mechanism that makes it possible for one

person to raise the speaker up.

After that I was rather tired

from all the activies of the weekend on top of all the driving...Colter

says I frequently show up to his place looking stoned outta my mind

[] (at least I think them's the words?) Perhaps that's why I enjoy all the rocking out we do at his pad?

[8-)] During the ride to Indy I had forced myself to listen through a best of jazz collections

CD I picked up at AK Fest. Combined with all

the crazy music I had been hearing all day at the hotel, I was overdue for some

good music. I love Colter's description of me begging for some good

tunes, lol [Y] We chatted for a bit, but I don't remember much because

I was way too tired.

Around 10am the next morning we got working on

switching in Colter's new reciever. To be honest, I wasn't expecting

much of a difference since it was practically the same reciever, just a

newer more up to date version with HDMI switching. We took the

opportunity to clean up the rack and managed to get rid of quite a few

wires that were still present after gear had been moving in and outta

the rack. Things look real clean and tidy now, but even more impressive was

the change in sound quality. His new reciever has quite the extensive

setup menu as well and a lot of cool features and way better DACs that

just really brought his system to the next level. We didn't run the

YPAO thing yet and just set everything by ear, but I think Colter is

gonna try running it in a few weeks after he gets comfortable with the

new sound. No sense in changing too many variables at a time. There is

some harshness in the upper frequencies of his lascalas that we were

able to knock out with the built-in parametric EQ. It was extremely

easy to dial in too because the reciever has the ability to mute any

channel on the fly - which means no more cumbersome unplugging of

speakers while the reciever is on (which is always scary). Somewhere in

there, I think right after we finished plugging everything in, we

grabbed a bit to eat at a really nice restraunt. Do you remember the

name Colter? I think that was my favorite establishment we've hit in

Indy so far....but maybe I'm biased by the wonderful afternoon weather

and eating outside.

The weather was so nice we were looking for

any excuse for projects to do outside. Colter has just recently

acquired his new MCM stacks, but since they're practically identical to

the ones Jim Hunter has and a huge pain to set up we decided to drag

four different Heresy styles outside to listen and measure the

differences between them. Outdoors is probably the best environment for

speaker comparisons because you don't have to compete with the

craziness of room acoustics. The only downside is that it was hard to

find a period of time quiet enough to get useful measurements. What

could have taken 5 minutes ended up taking about an hour? It

was time well spent though because we were able to reveal some crazy

rattling going on in one of his speakers. I think it was the KP-201?

After a bit of troubleshooting we discovered the the tweeter driver had

come loose and simply needed to be retightened. I would have never

thought to check for that if Trey hadn't shown me a few tricks last

summer in Hope where we had a similar problem with one of the KP-362's...

For those interested, here's all of the measurements:

All four:

(colors are the same as below)

HWL1:

KP-250:

KP-201:

HIP:

(click for larger pictures)

After we took the measurements, we set em all up and did some unvolume

matched comparisons with music. We both felt the KP-250 was superior

with the HIP in last, and we were both uncertain about the KP-201 since

it was about 7dB quieter than the rest...

After that we pulled out the "Colter Comparator" which allowed us to do

volume matched switching. At this point the KP-201 really started to

shine, leaving both the KP speakers as our faves with the HIP in last.

The source material was a Glenn Hughes album - I forgot the title.

It was starting to get a bit too hot outside so we came inside and

started watching Casino Royale. It was pretty cool to see Mike's new

DVD Player handle the uber-scratched DVD with ease. I think right

before the end of the movie Roger swung by to drop off my mic stand

that I left at Glenn's. Oops! We started chatting and Roger also showed

Mike the oogling speaker stroking that went on at AK Fest. Roger kindly asked

if I would swing by his place to help him dial in his sub and since I

wasn't going to be in town again for a while I figured that Sunday

night was the best time to do it. Things turned crazy hectic real quick

because I was still due to swing by Trey's place too! (to pick up a

camera stand I left in Hope last summer). Sadly I had to wrap up things

at Mike's place and then headed over to Rogers, where more fun

began...but more on that later, I gotta run...

So did you manage to get that new reciever all figured out Mike? That's

quite the complex menu system it's got going on (and a huge manual to

go with it).

[Gilbert]

But that statement "I personally prefer for the melody to be present in my music". You make it sound like a majority of the music's melody is at the bottom end. Yes, that's still an audible signal, even to my 45yr old ears, but melody at 100hz? Now I truely am interested... What music (a majority of the time) do you listen to and enjoy? Gotta be some sort of classical, or possibly opera.

It really doesn't matter what music I listen to and enjoy. Just because a few of my favorite songs have melodies that low doesn't mean all the rest of the music in the world follows suit (nor any of the other music I choose to listen to).

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Duh!.... and I know your not a rocket scientist too, but you dodged the question. You said that a few of your favorite songs carry melodies at or below 100hz. Well name them, name 1. Name 1 song that carries a melody at 100hz and below. You started this with your opinionated comment, now finish it like a man

Should we expand to go on to talk about harmonies too? Or do they not count? How about subharmonics? Where do you draw the line on what frequency ranges are important or not? Be sure to include how you know what that frequency range sounds like too. And then are you going to impose your opinion on others that feel differently? Oh my goodness, it's the end of the world because Doc enjoys music with low frequency content!!! Ahhhhhh run away! Shame on him for preffering something else!

Harmonies, well, lets not make this that complicated yet. Were still working on trying to get you to explain yourself on melodies below the 100hz range. Thats not to say they dont exist. I think its obvious to everyone here on the forum that 100hz is an audible frequency.

I am imposing my opinion? Really, how so? Because I asked you a question that you wont or are not able to answer? Thats it, thats your response. Pretty weak, dont you think.

Your obviously dodging the question, but why. Did my question with regards to your 100hz statement stump you. I thought it was pretty simple, and honest.

Mike, you talk allot of talk, and are definitely one of the most (if not the most) opinionated persons here.

And what you said to some poor guy with a high $$ TT setup, WOW, that can only be described as either arrogant or stupid.

AND I QUOTE

I believe Paul suckered me into helping him carry up a bunch of LP's he was trying to sell, along with some other stuff he wanted to demo with? I dunno, but I can't believe how heavy the boxes were.

Now we learn the real reason Dr. Who prefers CDs to LPs: They don't weigh as much.

I figured that Dr. Who, being a youngster in a group of old farts, would be the logical choice to help me haul up two boxes of records. I gave him the lighter box that had only 50 LPs in it, and I took the one with 70 LPs.

I enjoyed your AKFest review, Doc, especially the part about telling the guy with the fancy turntable that it sounded the most like a CD player that you had heard. That must've crushed him.

WOW, what an incredibly cocky and stupid statement to make. Personally, even if I'd a thought something like that; I would never have had the gall to say it, unless of course it was to a close or personal friend. Was that the case? If not, that was COCKY, and rude. Probably not intended that way, but if someone you dont know has a high dollar vinyl rig laid out on display, and hes kind enough to invite you for a listen, common sense (HEEELLLLLO!) would should tell you, DO NOT MAKE THAT KIND OF A COMMENT. Im sorry, but thats being a weenie head, to put it politely.

From a view of the pictures, I'd say Doc (what an oxymoron that is) can't be, but maybe 22 to 25yrs, max. Thats not to say that intelligence has a specific age, but I'm interested now in knowing what the hell is DrWhos background. WHO IS DRWHO. Ive been hear a while, and Ive never entered your threads or questioned your comments. Im sure there are others, like myself, that have read your opinionated statements, and are at least a tiny bit curious. What makes you believe you have the ability to critique a sound system, any system, even a ghetto blaster.

So, with that said, Mike (aka DrWho), what is your experience? It's obvious you've played with audio signals and an O-scope, it's even obvious, at least from an extremely limited number of your posts, that you have at least a basic understanding of sound waves, but.. What is your experience?

I don't ever remember reading about it somewhere. Did you ever work for a big-time, small-time, anytime kinda audiophile or stereo publication. Did you work at <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = u1 />Circuit City? Were you, or are you a sound mixer for a big group..... Metalica, Rolling Stones, N-sync, Mili Vanilli? Ever build an Amp (solid-state or otherwise), how about a preamp, or maybe a speaker cable?

WHO IS DRWHO.... Now, my interpretations may very well be wrong, but what real-life experience do you have? How many years? Any Thesiss floating around out there? Lord knows Ive read enough of you opinionated BS comments without ever saying anything. But now I gotta ask, because of the consistently arrogant way you come across on this forum...... What makes you think your it, when it comes to being able to critique sound quality? What makes you think your opinion is worth considering? What have you accomplished with respect to the subject matter at hand?

Sorry, for putting you on the spot, I honestly am. But because of the COUNTLESS (and there are that many+more), BOLD and OPINIONATED comments you have made on so many many many threads, I am finally compelled to ask. WHO IS DRWHO What is your experience?

I already know the kind of answer Im going to get, but I had to throw this out there. Sorry dude, but your full of yourself.

[lwhaples]

Going back out to the shop to spin some more vinyl. Can't wait to read what happens next.

Larry

[meagain]

I didn't read the last 2 pages yet.....

Who - What Klipsch speaker makes you happy in this regard then? Cornwall? Chorus II? Cuz I know you don't care for 'Scalas or Khorns.

Who - You SO must come over to visit. I want your opinion on my Khorns, etc. here. You can test like crazy!

[Gilbert]

I didn't read the last 2 pages yet.....

Who - What Klipsch speaker makes you happy in this regard then? Cornwall? Chorus II? Cuz I know you don't care for 'Scalas or Khorns.

Who - You SO must come over to visit. I want your opinion on my Khorns, etc. here. You can test like crazy!

Not trying to be rude, but what is it you expect to find out, that your ears can't tell you already?

[meagain]

Gilbert - Absolutely nothing. Besides, the tests already confirmed what the ears hear here. []

[bodcaw boy]

"there's nothing wrong with educating your ears" - pwk

have a blessed night

roy delgado

[DrWho]

Duh!.... and I know your not a rocket scientist too, but you dodged the question. You said that a few of your favorite songs carry melodies at or below 100hz. Well name them, name 1. Name 1 song that carries a melody at 100hz and below. You started this with your opinionated comment, now finish it like a man

I probably misunderstood your post then. My apologies. If you're seriously interested I can provide a list. Here's just a few of my favorites off the top of my head: "Bullet" by Covenant mentioned earlier in this thread, "The Siren" by Nightwish, or how about "Safe From Harm" by Massive Attack?

And what you said to some poor guy with a high $$ TT setup, WOW, that can only be described as either arrogant or stupid.

It was an innocent comment merely meant as noticing that there was no noise and the typical "voicing" I've come to associate with vinyl. It was actually meant as a compliment. I suppose in retrospect it was a foot in mouth comment, but I shared it with the forum cuz it's kinda funny too...

From a view of the pictures, I'd say Doc (what an oxymoron that is) can't be, but maybe 22 to 25yrs, max. Thats not to say that intelligence has a specific age, but I'm interested now in knowing what the hell is DrWhos background. WHO IS DRWHO. Ive been hear a while, and Ive never entered your threads or questioned your comments. Im sure there are others, like myself, that have read your opinionated statements, and are at least a tiny bit curious. What makes you believe you have the ability to critique a sound system, any system, even a ghetto blaster.

So, with that said, Mike (aka DrWho), what is your experience? It's obvious you've played with audio signals and an O-scope, it's even obvious, at least from an extremely limited number of your posts, that you have at least a basic understanding of sound waves, but.. What is your experience?

I don't ever remember reading about it somewhere. Did you ever work for a big-time, small-time, anytime kinda audiophile or stereo publication. Did you work at CircuitCity? Were you, or are you a sound mixer for a big group..... Metalica, Rolling Stones, N-sync, Mili Vanilli? Ever build an Amp (solid-state or otherwise), how about a preamp, or maybe a speaker cable?

WHO IS DRWHO.... Now, my interpretations may very well be wrong, but what real-life experience do you have? How many years? Any Thesiss floating around out there? Lord knows Ive read enough of you opinionated BS comments without ever saying anything. But now I gotta ask, because of the consistently arrogant way you come across on this forum...... What makes you think your it, when it comes to being able to critique sound quality? What makes you think your opinion is worth considering? What have you accomplished with respect to the subject matter at hand?

Sorry, for putting you on the spot, I honestly am. But because of the COUNTLESS (and there are that many+more), BOLD and OPINIONATED comments you have made on so many many many threads, I am finally compelled to ask. WHO IS DRWHO What is your experience?

I already know the kind of answer Im going to get, but I had to throw this out there. Sorry dude, but your full of yourself.

I'm kinda curious what kind of answer you're expecting to get. I know I frequently come across as arrogant and it's something I've been trying to work on for quite some time now - not exactly a character trait I prefer to have. I would probably argue that I don't see myself as being arrogant, but apparently the psychologists claim arrogant people don't notice it and will argue otherwise (kinda puts me in a catch 22)...nevertheless, I'm open to suggestions on changing my writing style. Nerds aren't exactly known for elegant communication skills...

For what it's worth, the username DrWho comes from a British Sci-Fi....I believe it's one of the, if not thee, oldest consecutive running TV series. You can read all about it here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/

I picked up the nickname quite a few years ago from a bunch of European friends and have pretty much stuck with it - more people refer to me as "doc" than they do "mike"...I'm most certainly not trying to pretend to be a real Dr of anything.

As far as my experience....are you seriously asking or just trying to make a point? I've shared quite a bit about my past on the forum over the years, but I'm more than willing to provide a summary if you're not just trying to start an argument. I very much dislike pissing matches. I'm even willing to go into details if that's what you want. I might ask the same favor in return though as I too enjoy learning where people are coming from. There's certainly no shortage of different backgrounds on the forum.

Btw, I'm 23.

[DrWho]

I didn't read the last 2 pages yet.....

Who - What Klipsch speaker makes you happy in this regard then? Cornwall? Chorus II? Cuz I know you don't care for 'Scalas or Khorns.

Who - You SO must come over to visit. I want your opinion on my Khorns, etc. here. You can test like crazy!

lol, I would love to swing by your place sometime. Sounds like we'd have a rocking good time. As far as klipsch speakers....Lascala 2 + Ultra2 subs would be my current favorite. I would probably enjoy the khorn a lot more if it were time-aligned and that midbass hump taken out. I believe the new crossover Roy put out for the khorn has some EQ built in? Is that the AK-4?

If we're talking strict 2-channel, I think it's a toss up between the Chorus II and the Forte II.

[meagain]

OK - You are telling me you prefer Forte II over Khorns? I don't have Forte II but I have Chorus II. I've only heard 'my' Chorus II so for all I know something is wrong with them, but gosh - I don't feel Chorus II and Khorns are in the same league. I forgot what this mid-bass hump is about but are you saying this is audible? I often wonder if the khorns you've heard were properly set up or had spruced up or new crossovers. And wonder why a sub is needed for 2-ch music.

[colterphoto1]

Did everyone remember to thank Mr. Picky for being the most excellent host?

[Deang]

Everyone gets to freely express their opinions except Mike, who has to create a resume and list all of his credentials before doing so.