How your room impacts how you hear sound

[mas]

If I place those speakers in an open place or
the equipment for that matter, I eliminate the room.

In your dreams, or perhaps in your limited understanding this may happen!

But in the real world where the rest of us choose to reside, the parameters and the primary factors simply change!

Outdoor sound is NOT that simple either!

[DrWho]

The room has no impact on the sound. People need to quit spreading this insidious nonsense.

Anyone need any caps?

lol!

I might be in the market actually...what you got?

[mas]

Yes the room impacts the sound.....BIG

TIME..................

It doesn't change the sound of the component.

I guess we can make a similar statement with regards to

facts and your thinking. They have no impact.

[DrWho]

"I can filter the room out of the sound when assessing a system."

Actually - whilst I am on a roll - I fix rooms without using audiophile room treatments too....[^o)]

Sounds nuts when I write it like that but there you have it. Essentially what I am saying is that I can listen to a given system and assess how it might sound it the room issues are sorted out, or in another room I know. I do use a number of tricks to do this which include:

Moving around the room is something I do too. But I always have to keep in mind that room effects that occur within the Haas window are going to be indistinguishable from the sound of the speakers. That would be things like early reflections or pretty much any reflection that happens within 20-40ms (yikes). Moving around the room moves the effects around in frequency so you can still get an idea for what the electronics are doing - it might not be very reliable though.

I've also found that listening at very quiet levels with a high-backed chair removes a lot of the room's effects too.

[mas]

Actually - whilst I am on a roll - I fix rooms without using audiophile room treatments too....

I highly recommend that approach as well.

[DrWho]

No - I do not know why. Yes - it does appear to be almost independent of room and listening distance (from 6 to 15 feet anyway). It would be nice if some of you could check this out and report back. Like I said - I am batting 12 for 12 on this one thus far - but I have not tried it on heritage speakers yet (Scalas, Belles etc). Worked BRILLIANTLY for a pair of RF7's though. Worked on my own speakers too, and a pair of 802's, some Martin logans, Spendors, Triangles......

Does anyone else think I am losing it?

I think you're just noticing a huge coincidence. Generally speaking, you want to approximate a 60 degree angle between the mains (which would be achieved if the listening position made an equilateral triangle with the mains). So basically, if your mains are on the front wall and 10 feet apart, then the listening position should be 10 feet from each speaker, which is about 8.5 feet from the front wall. I don't think I'd go much narrower than 45 degrees and 75 degrees is prob the max (which puts the 90 degrees of the khorn just over the edge - probably why so many pursue 3-channel stereo).

[anarchist]

I have yet to hear you state a fact, Mas, beyond the obvious. Please enlighten me as to how your room treatments will alter the sound reproduced by a speaker or amplifier. If we put an amp in a closet, will its sound reproduction change? Thought so. You are dismissed.

Dr.Who. Yes, I have set up equipment outside. I had to turn the volume up too. Bass reproduction was diminished. Imaging suffered. Clarity decreased. Did the equipment produce the sound differently, no. Did the environment affect what I heard, yes.

You folks are arguing a point no one has made. Its kind of humorous. Similar to when Mas was chastising folks who believe in measurements for not believing in science.

Regardless, if Joe Schmoe asks which amplifiers or speakers or turntables I like, I am not going to tell him that is the wrong question because he should be making room treatments instead and then worry about selecting his equipment. If a guy says my system is not producing high enough volumes for my liking, I am not going to tell him to pick a smaller room or build a tiny addition to his house.

[WMcD]

My comments:

1) We should thank mas for getting us all looking at acoustics. He has pointed out that what we read about large room acoustics does not necessarily apply to small room acoustics. Plus, he beats us to death on the issue - - which is a good thing.

2) Many of us have visited the listening rooms at Klipsch Indy. They are heavily treated. The fair conclusion is that Klipsch thinks treatment helps. I listend to K-Horns and other Klipsch in a heavily treated room at a dealer in the 'burbs of Chicago. Nice.

3) What to do to a room to make it better may be difficult to determine without testing equipment. But I suspect that most rooms are so bad that most treatments (within reason) will improve them. When you're at the bottom, anything is "up."

4) You can do an elementry test on a room. Just clap your hands and listen for the echo. In some cases this will result in an echo which sounds like a science fiction sound effect, a distinct "boooiiinnng". My living room has that and I believe it causes a nasal type influnce on voices and music.

5) I'll repeat my bath tub story because it may show how little you have to do to change things.

I have a tub with two sliding doors on the long wall giving access. I listen to NPR in the morning on a Tap Tunes. With the doors closed, there is a distinct reverberation making voices unclear. Siding one door totally open takes away just half of that long wall. So that is 1/6th of the total wall length. (Consider that the floor and ceiling are still there too, so it is a smaller fraction of total reflecting surfaces. This 1/6th cures the reverb totally. But opening the door halfway, meaning 1/12th of the wall total, is where the cure is just about totally effective.

Granted, this may not apply to a living room. But it could indicate that 10 percent or less treatment will improve things. I think PWK was talking about that figure for treatment with polycylinders. And see Dr. Who's experience with treating the AES room at U of I.

Gil

[DrWho]

I have yet to hear you state a fact, Mas, beyond the obvious. Please enlighten me as to how your room treatments will alter the sound reproduced by a speaker or amplifier. If we put an amp in a closet, will its sound reproduction change? Thought so. You are dismissed.

Dr.Who. Yes, I have set up equipment outside. I had to turn the volume up too. Bass reproduction was diminished. Imaging suffered. Clarity decreased. Did the equipment produce the sound differently, no. Did the environment affect what I heard, yes.

You folks are arguing a point no one has made. Its kind of humorous. Similar to when Mas was chastising folks who believe in measurements for not believing in science.

Regardless, if Joe Schmoe asks which amplifiers or speakers or turntables I like, I am not going to tell him that is the wrong question because he should be making room treatments instead and then worry about selecting his equipment. If a guy says my system is not producing high enough volumes for my liking, I am not going to tell him to pick a smaller room or build a tiny addition to his house.

lol, I think you make good points and I think some are jumping on you because they're trying to argue with points you're not making.

Btw, I'm surprised that clarity decreased outside. The bass reproduction and imaging make sense, but not the clarity...was it the result of increased distortion because you had to crank it up more? Or was it other things like wind and the noise floor?

[anarchist]

lol, I think you make good points and I think some are jumping on you because they're trying to argue with points you're not making.

Btw, I'm surprised that clarity decreased outside. The bass reproduction and imaging make sense, but not the clarity...was it the result of increased distortion because you had to crank it up more? Or was it other things like wind and the noise floor?

Bravo, DrWho. Distortion wasn't an issue. Outside elements (horses, dogs, trees rustling, automobiles) dramatically increased the noise floor and served to smear the sound. Similar to listening to an ipod while mowing the lawn.

[mas]

Distortion wasn't an issue. Outside elements (horses, dogs, trees
rustling, automobiles) dramatically increased the noise floor and served to
smear the sound. Similar to listening to an ipod while mowing the lawn.

Its called 'masking'. And is related to relative intensity levels of
multiple sources.

Nothing is 'smeared' well, not in the acoustics realm, anyway.

Please enlighten me as to how your room treatments will alter the sound
reproduced by a speaker or amplifier. If we put an amp in a closet, will
its sound reproduction change?

And where has anyone, who has maintained that the acoustical interaction of
a room matters, stated that the room acoustics changed the original signal
of the source? You have just demonstrated that you havent even the most basic
clue regarding what anyone is talking about!

But I love how you have to intentionally misrepresentno, lets just call it
what this is but the definition of LIE in order to construct a straw man with
which you can debate.

And in your malformed space called a brain you maintain that the environmental
factors are removed simply because you go outside!?
Really? You still have plenty of environmental
factors that interact with the direct signal.

But the net result is that in the interaction of the environment with the
signal that emanates from the speaker, what the listener hears and experiences
IS changed! And as such, room treatment can radically
alter the perceived sound a listener
experiences.

And to the degree that you fail to understand this, you have nothing
constructive to add, except for your usual noise and distortion.

[kev313]

WAIT!!! I can make everyone happy! Audi-o-philes and pro sound engineers rejoice, your paths have crossed (only $250 - $2000 per piece!!!):

http://sixmoons.com/audioreviews/francktchang/resonators.html

<?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" />

[jacksonbart]

Those are awesome.

[mas]

"Made in France"....

[:#][][]

[anarchist]

But I love how you have to intentionally misrepresentno, lets just call it

what this is but the definition of LIE in order to construct a straw man with

which you can debate.

And in your malformed space called a brain you maintain that the environmental

factors are removed simply because you go outside!?

Really? You still have plenty of environmental

factors that interact with the direct signal.

But the net result is that in the interaction of the environment with the

signal that emanates from the speaker, what the listener hears and experiences

IS changed! And as such, room treatment can radically

alter the perceived sound a listener

experiences.

And to the degree that you fail to understand this, you have nothing

constructive to add, except for your usual noise and distortion.

This response will take more than 10 seconds to read so try to follow along Mas. You just demonstrated not only do you engage in projection and self-deception but have poor reading comprehension to boot; of course, we have seen you demonstrate that previously. The sad thing is you have managed to deceive yourself in believing your own hype and believe attacking others is an example of you having an idea.

I didn't claim environmental factors were removed.

I have stated repeatedly the listeners perception is what changes.

You, as usual, merely parrot what has already been stated and then feign some miraculous insight. You aren't even unique in your deception and simply mimic other posters. Your first post in this thread offered nothing and your subsequent posts haven't surpassed it. To wit, the question posed by the originator of this thread was: Why do we argue about amps, preamps all day... but why don't we say " You know what, your room sucks"? To which your insightful and constructive response was: but to suggest that the speaker/room interaction just might offer a greater source of ROI? Such sacrelige! Such insight! Thank goodness we have you and your brilliant analysis - wait a second, you didn't actually answer the question, did you? Of course not.

Frankly, sir, I have no use for you and you have no reason to respond to my posts because they are obviously too difficult for you to follow. Thats harsh, I know, but hold on a moment. Lets provide the proof of my statements. Many posts ago i stated:

The component is producing exactly the same sound. What you hear is

different. No matter how you spin it, the equipment is creating the

sound and the room is impacting certain elements of it.

You, hours late to the party, tell me I know nothing about what I am talking about and accuse me of strawman arguments followed by this bit:

...the net result is that in the interaction of the environment with the

signal that emanates from the speaker, what the listener hears and experiences

IS changed! And as such, room treatment can radically

alter the perceived sound a listener

experiences.

As I stated you offer nothing new and merely paraphrase that which is already known or has already been stated and then claim to be insightful. Pathetic, really.

[maxg]

Not in trouble at all AFAIK. The only problem is that whilst generally one can get a vague idea of the sort of sound someone might be enjoying according to their musical tastes and equipment they own, for rooms it is nigh on impossible to get a real impression.

Impossible? I am certainly no master on the subject, but if you could obtain an impulse response of your room, I could convolve it with my music and get an idea of what your room sounds like by listening on headphones. I forget the term for the technique, but I've seen/experienced it numerous times....it's almost freaky.

To do this sort of thing on here would need lots and lots of pictures - descriptions of the room, the perceived issues, measurements, details on construction etc. etc. It is not impossible - just really really tricky and as so much room "treatments" is based on try it and see (hear) it could take weeks if not months to get some results.

I beg to differ that the acoustical treatment process revolves around try it and hear it...if that were the case, it would really suck to treat some of the larger venues - like churches where you're mounting stuff high in the air and gotta navigate around the pews...

Acoustical treatment can very much be a surgical process - it just requires one to be using the right tool. But hey, I suppose one could find a way to drive in a screw with a hammer []

Even something as simple as positioning my sub and adjusting the volume and X-over points took me 6 months to get spot on (to my tastes of course) and I AM HERE!!!

Yikes! Do you find that an acceptable amount of time to dial in your system?

What on earth is an impulse response? Who do I get one?

I think you misunderstood my post. I was trying to illustrate that addressing room acoustics on a forum like this is almost impossible. I never heard on any professional implementation addressing this issue from afar - with no equipment - just pictures (maybe) and some descriptions.

As for dialing in the sub - it was not quite the PITA is appears. I had it probably 90% of the way there within a couple of hours. Thereafter, as I played music on my system over the following months I would make adjustments where I thought the sound was off. We are talking small adjustments in the main, except for one time where I moved the implementation more for aethetic reasons than anything else. That certainly prolonged the process.

I have to say with regard to this thread that I am somewhat surprised I was not taken to task over some of the things I claimed - particularly considering the war that is going on between other posters here. I wonder what I have to state to get attacked around here?

Anyway - I did not write my claims to be attacked - it is a genuine report on what I have learned in my time as an audiophile. I just thought others would go balistic.

As to the war:

One side is saying, correctly that the sound produced by the speakers and amps (etc.) is not affected by the room.

The other side is saying that the sound heard from the speakers and amps (etc.) is affected by the room.

Guess what - both are (probably) correct although the former is assumptive and actually a lot harder to prove than you might think.

One of the problems we have here, in dealing with room acoustics, is that in either extreme case the net result is poor sound. If it is a cheap and horrible system it will sound bad in the best room. Conversely if it is a massively expensive system in a dreadful room it will also sound bad.

To argue that one is more important than the other is to argue that ears are more important than the brain that interprets the sound. To date my beagle - who has hearing many times more sensitive than mine has expressed no musical preferences. On the other hand a friend of mine (university professer in Math who happens to be profoundly deaf) has also never expressed an opinion.

[DrWho]

lol Max, I'll be sure to flame you the next chance I get so you don't feel left out. I loved the beagle analogy, though I don't know why you're dating your dog...[]

An impulse response essentially describes the behavior of the room when a stimulus is applied. Picture a spike played at every frequency that lasts nearly 0ns. That of course is impossible to create, but you can measure a frequency sweep of your system (easy to do) and then derive the impulse response (easy to do).

I agree that treating rooms over the internet is rather difficult, especially without measurements, but I think it's rather far from impossible...at least from a basic first principals standpoint where major issues can be easily addressed. For example, there is probably no harm in telling everyone to put bass traps in every corner followed by acoustical panels at the first reflection points. If you wanted, you could go a step further and try to decipher what a person is hearing and then suggest solutions to that specific problem. Either way, you're looking at investments well under $500. That's certainly less than many are spending on cables.

Ok, how bout the flaming part....

You mentioned playing around with rugs and tapestries. I think many would be surprised by how little of a difference they make compared to proper acoustical treatment. In fact, you can barely measure the difference between a hard floor and one with carpet over it, let alone some random bit of carpet on the wall. I would argue that most of the difference heard with these inadequate treatments is more along the lines of changing one's perspective, which is facilitated by the minuscule difference.

(side note...the effectiveness of carpet is going to be dependent on the thickness...so if you're playing around with 4" shag, my apologies)

[maxg]

Who,

If you genuinely cant measure the effect of a persian rug (not that thick but high density) on a marble floor (such as I have) then we have a problem with the device.....

I am sure proper acoustic devices do a lot more - one would certainly hope so as they are designed for the job supposedly but that does not pre-suppose that using more normal bits of furnishing cannot make a big difference in comparison to a bare room, for example.

Empty my living room rings like a bell. Furnished it doesn't. Most audiophiles who have visited have expressed real envy over the room's accoustic properties. I would say it is probably amongst the best in the club and I do not own a single audiophile treatment.

[germerikan]

Bielieve it or not my wife did our room treatments....... she is a plant fanatic and (I heard this with my own ears) by placing different size plants in certan places we went from a "bright" room (wooden floors, smooth walls) to dead. Of course "professional" treatment might work better but what the he11 the plants were already there and look good to boot.

Anyone else ever try this?

[zuzu]

Are bass traps [generic name I suppose] and tube traps[brand name] the same sort of thing? When I had big houses with big listening rooms and klipsch horns I used 8 cylindical tube traps of different heights and diameters. They helped. Is anyone interested in buying one or more of these?