PhilMays Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 Hi guys, Recently I setup a 2 channel system with a Rega TT. I have patiently gone through set-up issues and feel like I am perhaps 75% - 85% finished in that regard. My old vinyl has been in storage for 20 + years and really sounds like crap. All-in-all my records sound like a box of rice crispies with about a gallon of milk poured over it. I am wondering if perhaps my old TT (Technics of some type) with it's cartridge was so cheap that it didn't pick this up and my Rega is, or, do I need to do a complete cleaning of my records. I have not cleaned them and don't have a cleaning kit yet. I was reading on some web site that some do not believe in cleaning vinyl. What do you think? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 Records need to be cleaned - the good news is that as time goes by they will get quieter. I used Discwasher in the old days but have found the Allsop Orbitrac to be far more effective and easy - like a manual Nitty Gritty without the vacuum. It uses a hand held beam with a pad cartridge below - fits on the spindle. One pad for wet rounds, another for drying. http://www.allsop.com/cd-dvd-cleaners/record-cleaners/model-77500/orbitrac-2/ http://www.soundstage.com/upton05.htm For more ideas and methods... http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/632252.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 Hahaha! Sorry, I don't mean to make light of your situation... But what you are experiencing is part of the 'romance' of vinyl! (...Imagine scratchy violin music playing in the background...) I have no problem with the format, and I have far too many records in my collection (thank goodness I became a record care fanatic when far too young!). But there will be some surface noise in almost all of the recordings, despite how pristine they are and how well cared for they might have been. And I can only imagine what some who extol the virtues of finding records at the garage sales are listening to, as there may be the exceptional well cared for collection, but most were played on the typical consumer grade changers that dominated the market and were handled in a ... well, let's just say I hope folks didn't drop them!! And I dare say, it scares me what many are considering acceptable. But aren't they romantic! You can't help but be involved with them, especially as you have to attend to them every 17-20 minutes anyway! [] BTW, proper cleaning can help. Check out the old Audio Amateur formula for their mask or one of the Nitty Gritty machine based cleaners. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 Dust gets on lp's. It is not a good thing to cook the dust into the lps with a stylus. Clean your lp's. You can search this topic for advice, a lot seem to like the machines for this purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 For a thorough first time in a long time cleaning, I use a weak mixture in lukewarm water of Ivory (or similar) dishwashing detergent and a baby washcloth in a circuluar motion with the grooves. Then, a rinse with clean, filtered or distilled water and a vacuuming with a disc cleaning device. It you don't have that, a dry soft chamois will do. BTW, there are vinyl eating critters, especially in warm humid areas that can permanently eat little craters in the grooves. No fix for that. Works wonders. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 Pretty true mas. Speaking of surface noise, I put on a cd of ELP's Pictures at an Exhibition yesterday because i could not get to my mfsl lp version conveniently. I swear the cd was noisier, as if it was recorded straight from a US pressing, and I mean from the lp not from the master tape. When it comes to older recorded music you are often better off with vinyl in excellent condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 I and most on the forum find record cleaning definitely helps reduce if not eliminate record noise. Machines like the VPI or a Nitty Gritty are highly regarded by owners on the forum. The question in my mind is what else is going on here. What arm and what cartridge? I happen to think that one needs some quality in all three legs of the LP playing stool -- the 'table, the arm, and the cartridge -- for LPs to sound good and to reduce record noise. At some level of quality, record scratch seems to drop more out of the action and be less noticeable compared to the music. Since you have a Rega and I suppose Rega arm, my first candidate for suspicion is your cartridge, especially if the stylus cantilever looks bent or twisted. What remaining setup do you have to do? What's your tracking weight and how did you measure it, and do you have an alignment protractor to make sure the cantilever & stylus are aimed correctly? I've just discovered a nifty, $20 Bausch & Lomb pocket magnifier that's really good for looking at cantilever issues and aligning with a protractor (it's not powerful enough to inspect a stylus). Be sure to get the 3x - 7x version if you get one -- Do you ever get up to No VA or the DC area? Bring along a sample of your LPs if you do for us to try out. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 If the pops are as a result of anomalies in the vinyl, your cartridge and arm are going to pick them up. They become pat of the signal as encoded into the vinyl. You can minimize them if they are caused by foreign sources in addition to the vinyl surface, such as accumulated dirt. But unless you are looking for an arm and cartridge that selectively ignore certain frequencies (and I would not consider that a very accurate system!), the odds are you are going to have to get used to them. And that IS part of vinyl. Now, some of the high quality pressings are definitely superior in this regards. But if you are considering what was commercially mass produced from the 70's onward, I wish you luck. And if you really want to become frustrated, start examining those pressing for either the presence tiny dimples or for tiny bumps that appear to be made from tiny 'chicklets' being part of the vinyl itself - filler. But be forewarned, if you start to do that, you are asking for frustration. Ignorance in this regards is indeed bliss. I wish I could say that the vinyl age was golden. But things are not as simple as some will have you believe...especially if they are looking back with rose colored glasses and imagining what they believe to be the golden era of analog. There were plenty of problems then as well! No reason to panic, but just be realistic with your expectations. After all, that was one reason for devices attempting to address these romantic aspects such as those by Burwen and DBX. BTW, I understand that on the car forums there are reportedly those who extol the virtues of horses as well, despite the need to feed, water, curry, board them and to deal with the poop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 The good cleaning is important; I agree with the comment on distilled water. The key on "washing" is to absolutely use distilled water and an old, well broken in, clean chamois cloth. Every time I pull out one to transfer to the CD's, I also wipe it down with a 25%/75% Windex/distilled water using a very old Audio Technica disk cleaning pad, then "rinse", wipe again, with distilled water. The comment about playing them dirty is correct; the stylus can embed dirt particles if you are not careful. Another "trick" is use compressed air to dry them and it will often dislodge any particles that you missed. It usually takes a couple of cleanings to do it. I did some "shopping" around and ended up with one of these; pricey, but very, very good on most LP's. They also have a couple of units that are $7000... I've heard one of those; it's amazing, but out of most our pocket book range. http://www.esotericsound.com/SNR.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted April 7, 2007 Moderators Share Posted April 7, 2007 Mallett the Easter Bunny dropped something off something at my door for you by mistake, I need your address, you have an email from me. WIth regard to pops and clicks. There are a lot of threads and topics here about cleaning records that you can search. The orbitrac is a highly reccomended system by everyone I know who uses it. I cannot reccoment highly enough the Disc Doctor brushes and cleaner. You can use it manually as well. There is another system you can use available from Garage records where the record sits in a bath of cleaner and you rotate the record manually. I don't agree that you have to live with pops and clicks if you listen to viny. I have an original Miles Davis Kind of Blue 6 Eye label in both stereo and mono, both of which are almost 50 years old and neither one of them have a pop or click on them. I also have some Blue Note Jazz lps that no matter what amount of cleaning or treatment are simply unplayable. The surface noise is horrible. There is not a visable scratch or nick in these records, they look beautiful, but sound so scratchy they are worthless. What's the difference? Pop typically more of a function of static electricity. Everytime you play the record, clean it in a circular motion, put it in or pull it out of a sleeve (that is not anti-static) you are developoing static. The way to get rid of this is to buy a Milty anti-static gun. They work, they last forever, and you will love it. Just don't try to take it with you in carry on luggage (that's a story for a different time). Now clicks, which are a bit differeent in sound, are usualy caused by scratches in the record. You hear a brief click and then about a second later a click, and so on until the needle is no longer going through that scratch. Nothing you can do about that. There is a polymer product for sale that claims to eliminate or reduce the noise from that, but it's crap. Then you get to the surface noise stuff, in the quiet part of the lp, like the lead in groove, between songs, you hear noise, a grinding, raspy noise. A good cleaning MAY compleately eliminate that noise. If the noise is from dirt, dust, beer, smoke (tobacco and otherwise), mold release compount (Max would spell it mould on that side of the pond), etc. that has built up in the grooves you can get that out of there and it will play fine. However, is someone has played the record with all of that gunk in there, espically multiple times, then you are screwed. As someone already stated, this stuff gets burned or etched into the groove walls. I cannot remember what the tempratures folks claim are reached in the groove wall by the pressure of the needle, but it is quite high, way more then you would expect. Cleaning is essential to keeping a great record sounding great. A good wet clean on any record, new or used, and then dry before every play will keep your records noise FREE. The other problem is damage caused by an old type stylus or worn needle. I don't know about you, but when I was a kid my parents got us "phonograph." A box with a turntable and a speaker built into it. On that tonearm there was a needle that you could filp from 33 to 78. There was a stylus on one side and you could flip it over to the other. Some were even mono and stereo. These "el cheepo" needles were saphire. They were designed to be used for 100 or so hours and then replaced. Of course they never were, they were played until the saphire practically wore off. While that was happening the needle was destroying the groove walls. The same thing happens with an old worn out diamond needle. The diamond needles is using tracking at a fraction of the weight as the saphire because they were usually on much better tonearms and in much better cartridges, but diamonds don't give and they can do a lot of damage in a hurry. They can even do more damage if they track at too light of force rather then too heavy because the needle is not sitting in the groove well, it is bouncing from side to side. THERE IS NOTHING you can do about this damage and only a good cleaning and a subsequent play is going to tell you if that is your problem. So, you want to make sure you have a good stylus that is in good shape. Someone recently mentioned that the audio stores used to have microscopes that could check the condition, but none do now. I would not even know what to look for if I had acess to one, but I am told it is pretty evident when you see a worn cartridge. Outside of that you need to keep track, in some loose way, of how much time you have on the cartridge. Now to your question, can an improved cartridge/stylus make the noise more noticeable. Absolutely! A great cartridge can turn an lp that was almost noise free into your worst nightmare, because that is what you are paying for. To get more information out of the groove wall. Usually, you are going to pick up more noise with a better cartridge but it is relative. If you had a fairly decent one before, and have no noise, you are not going to pick up anything more if you move up. If you had a an inexpensive one with a stiff cantilever and move way up to one designed to get every possible vibration out of the groove wall you are going to hear things you never heard before, both in the music (the good stuff) and in terms of damage in the grooves (the bad stuff). The shape of the stylus also plays into this. Conical vs. eliptical vs. line contact. An eliptical is going to cause less wear then a conical, and a line contact is even better because you are going with it's shape you are going to get less groove noise, and you will also get less wear. With regard to home made record cleaners, there are bunch of receipies on the net. Before you use one I would reccomend that you get a record that you don't really care about, that you know is relatively noise free, and try out the home brew and give it a play. Some of the suggested home brews leave a lot of residue, that will result in damage either to your record, or your stylus. Oh, one last thing, with this type of question, if you ask 10 people you will get 15 different opinions. Of which 10 will be pretty valid, 2 will be tounge in cheek, 1 will be off topic, and 2 will be so far out there you don't know what they are thinking. Hope this helps, Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted April 7, 2007 Moderators Share Posted April 7, 2007 Hi guys, Recently I setup a 2 channel system with a Rega TT. I have patiently gone through set-up issues and feel like I am perhaps 75% - 85% finished in that regard. My old vinyl has been in storage for 20 + years and really sounds like crap. All-in-all my records sound like a box of rice crispies with about a gallon of milk poured over it. I am wondering if perhaps my old TT (Technics of some type) with it's cartridge was so cheap that it didn't pick this up and my Rega is, or, do I need to do a complete cleaning of my records. I have not cleaned them and don't have a cleaning kit yet. I was reading on some web site that some do not believe in cleaning vinyl. What do you think? Phil Phil, I forgot, do you have the link to that web site? I think what you may be referring to is most folks would say after you do a good wet cleaning of a record, either with orbitrac, or disk doctor, whether by machine or hand, you do not need to clean it from there. I agree with this. But you do need to do a dry clean before each play. With a brush such as the _________ dang the brand is escaping me. It has carbon fibre plus a felt pad to clean surface dust with the felt and groove dust with the carbon fibre. I am too lazy to go up stairs and look, but they are sold everywhere. Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 Travis, FWIW, my opinion is that a better cart can make noise LESS noticeable! It might be because the stylus rides at a different level in the groove, where previous cartridges might have left much wear and dust ground into the groove, or because it might react more precisely to the groove which might in turn reduce noise-exaggerating distortion (which I think can be part of the problem). I also think that the music separates out better from the noise with a good cartridge as well as a good tonearm. By the way, how's the rest of your cartridge tryout coming, and what are you finding about how noise vs. music reproduces with the ones you've tried so far? Some of us think the Vector is exemplary in the noise department. Larry 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted April 7, 2007 Moderators Share Posted April 7, 2007 Travis, FWIW, my opinion is that a better cart can make noise LESS noticeable! It might be because the stylus rides at a different level in the groove, where previous cartridges might have left much wear and dust ground into the groove, or because it might react more precisely to the groove which might in turn reduce noise-exaggerating distortion (which I think can be part of the problem). I also think that the music separates out better from the noise with a good cartridge as well as a good tonearm. By the way, how's the rest of your cartridge tryout coming, and what are you finding about how noise vs. music reproduces with the ones you've tried so far? Some of us think the Vector is exemplary in the noise department. Larry Larry, I agree that a better cartride can casue less noise if you go from an eliptical to line contact like the Transfiguration and the Koetsu. Thus, moving from say a Shelter with eliptical, to a line contact will for sure cause less noise, that is a proven fact. However, in my post of above, I was talking in general terms. I think moving from a low cost MM, Ortofon, Shure, to a high dollar MC a record with groove damage is going to become much more apparent. However, I don't believe the noise our friend is describing is going to deminish with a better cart. I agree with you, that once you move up beyond a certain level, better cart will make noise less noticable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted April 7, 2007 Moderators Share Posted April 7, 2007 Phil, I also meant to say in my original response that you really should take Larry up on his offer. In fact, you should try and see if he will let you take your whole TT rig and some LPs with you to his house and you he will get you set up like nobody can. He has been a wealth of knowledge and help to me. Plus, you will get to see how one of your lp's will sound with a very, very, very high-end cartiridge on one of the best tracking tonearms on the face of the planet. Of course once you do, you will never look back. Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 I don't believe the noise our friend is describing is going to diminish with a better cart.Yeah, probably not unless there's something specifically wrong with his cart, which I thought sounded possible. Incidentally, I'd find it mechanically difficult to insert another LP player into my setup. And, yes, he and I would definitely hear it if his records were badly worn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 "BTW, I understand that on the car forums there are reportedly those who extol the virtues of horses as well, despite the need to feed, water, curry, board them and to deal with the poop." Yeah I see that all the time on the Mennonite forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 "BTW, I understand that on the car forums there are reportedly those who extol the virtues of horses as well, despite the need to feed, water, curry, board them and to deal with the poop." Yeah I see that all the time on the Mennonite forum. Actually, even the Mennonites have seen the virtues of modern Clop and Poop surpressors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted April 7, 2007 Share Posted April 7, 2007 As mentioned by Travis and others, playing a dirty record may impress the dirt into the groove walls to be heard another day - the instantaneous temperature at the very small point of pressure contact approaches 800 degrees F for an extremely brief moment in time. The vinyl actually approaches it's melting point, but not quite enough to make a permanent change - unless there is crud available to press into the wall... Perfect for styli exams, Radio Shack sells a hand held illuminated 60X100 mag microscope about the size of a pack of cigs, $9.99...!!!? http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=microscope&origkw=microscope&sr=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMays Posted April 7, 2007 Author Share Posted April 7, 2007 Thanks for the replys...just got in from the Carolina Hurricanes Hockey game...they won in OT but will miss the playoffs...oh well.... I believe it is a Rega 2 (perhaps 3) tone arm and I purchased a brand new Rega cartridge that they reccomend for this arm. I will check it out tomorrow morning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted April 8, 2007 Share Posted April 8, 2007 Vinyl Pops was my favorite cereal when I was a kid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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