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To Sub or not to Sub the RF-7, that is the question.


UFObuster

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Well, after a few upgrades I'm running a pair of RF-7 fronts on a rotel rb-1080 (along with my old RF-5 in surround and RC-7 center on a Yamaha RX-V2600). I have my old "left-over" RSW-10 for my Sub. I find myself frequently dialing back the bass level a bit. It sounds a little "over the top". Obviously, I'm getting very good lows from the RF-7.

Mostly, I've thought that the excessive bass might be due to "over-produced" recordings because the bass level does vary. So, what are RF-7 owners running with these speakers? I know about the RSW-15 or the newer Klipsch models but will a larger sub really matter? Is it a quality or size issue?.....if so, what options...bigger sub or no sub?....lateral move to SVS or similar product?

thanks in advance for your comments

Roger

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A sub is a must....especially if you watch movies. But even for 2-channel listening I've found that a sub really enhances the experience. Of course, I always recommend setting the mains to small too. The only catch is that you don't want the sub to detract from the mains - which means quality is absolutely vital. And though it sounds like a manly testosterone thing, going bigger is always better quality (according to the physics). I wouldn't recommend anything less than the RSW-15 or the THX Ultra2 subs to go with the RF-7's.

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I just bought rf-7's and initially tried to integrate my sub with them (adire/bash diy), but I decided not to for 2-channel. With the handy free nch tone generator and my db meter, the rf-7's "-3" is under 30 hz in my room, with the denon's bass at 0 (obviously set to large). I can't possibly see dealing with crossover/blending issues for under 30hz.

Note: my room is 1700 sq ft (dorm room), and I could easily see needing reinforcement in larger rooms. I plan on using 2 in my apartment's basement next fall.


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Just a guess, but I suspect that with the peaks at ~50 and ~80Hz, you are measuring more of the room's standing waves than you are the speakers, especially as the peaks are reinforced by the addition of the sub. And the ~800Hz dip is a classic comb filter response.

A good sub can add allot to just about any speaker... but not for gain, for LF extention. Except for the added LF extension, you shouldn't even notice that its there (in terms of gain).

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A sub is a must....especially if you watch movies. But even for 2-channel listening I've found that a sub really enhances the experience. Of course, I always recommend setting the mains to small too. The only catch is that you don't want the sub to detract from the mains - which means quality is absolutely vital. And though it sounds like a manly testosterone thing, going bigger is always better quality (according to the physics). I wouldn't recommend anything less than the RSW-15 or the THX Ultra2 subs to go with the RF-7's.

Mike is right, a proper sub will enhance your music experience 5.1 or 2.1

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I'm having the exact same dilemma using the RF-7's, RC7,and RS-7's and an HSU VTF3-MK2 sub with a BFD. Movies sound fantastic with my sub behind the main listening area. But for two channel audio I find myself constantly setting the mains to large and turning off the sub to get the best and flattest response.

I was originally using the Room EQ Wizard's frequency sweep and having the response graphed automatically. What I started working on today was manually measuring each frequency using the REW excel spreadsheets to take into account standing waves and everything else. What originally looked perfect in REW now looks like utter crap as my graph is all over the place. I'm now going to try adjusting the filters on my BFD using this manner instead to see if it makes an improvement.

Getting the bass right is the hardest freakin' thing I think I've ever had to figure out in my life.... seriously.

Can anyone here tell me if the VTF3-MK2 is supposed to go well with the RF-7's? I was originally told yes but now I'm not so sure....

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dbossa,

I don't know anything about your sub but did you try lowering your crossover point to 60 Hz and still keeping your RF-7 set to Large? Right now I have a Denon AVR 3805 driving my system (with my front 3 speakers set to Large) and it sounds quite nice. Fwiw, when I had my Denon AVR 4802R hooked up I preferred setting the crossover to 60 Hz for music on my system.
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[*-)]

I was originally using the Room EQ Wizard's frequency sweep and having the response graphed automatically. What I started working on today was manually measuring each frequency using the REW excel spreadsheets to take into account standing waves and everything else. What originally looked perfect in REW now looks like utter crap as my graph is all over the place. I'm now going to try adjusting the filters on my BFD using this manner instead to see if it makes an improvement.

Getting the bass right is the hardest freakin' thing I think I've ever had to figure out in my life.... seriously.

Do you mean you've got women figured out and can move on to figuring out subwoofers? [;)] [*-)]

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[*-)]

I was originally using the Room EQ Wizard's frequency sweep and having the response graphed automatically. What I started working on today was manually measuring each frequency using the REW excel spreadsheets to take into account standing waves and everything else. What originally looked perfect in REW now looks like utter crap as my graph is all over the place. I'm now going to try adjusting the filters on my BFD using this manner instead to see if it makes an improvement.

Getting the bass right is the hardest freakin' thing I think I've ever had to figure out in my life.... seriously.

Do you mean you've got women figured out and can move on to figuring out subwoofers? [;)] [*-)]

OK, second hardest...[:P]

When using the Room EQ Wizard and loading a calibration file for my Radio Shack SPL meter, should I be following the Mic Cal line in the graph as being my target? I'm also going to try doing everything with the crossover of 60 as my graph is always all messed up between 60 and 80.

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also did you calibrate the rs meter with the compensation chart?

The meter itself wasn't calibrated. I simply loaded the meter's calibration file in REW which should give the same end result. I just noticed that the Mic Cal graph shows most of it's frequencies below the target graph. I would imagine that this is because the RS meter isn't sensitive enough at lower levels which would mean that it detects 20Hz at 62db vs 75db (as an example). So I figured that my target should be the line that corresponds to the Mic Cal line.

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I'm having the exact same dilemma using the RF-7's, RC7,and RS-7's and an HSU VTF3-MK2 sub with a BFD. Movies sound fantastic with my sub behind the main listening area. But for two channel audio I find myself constantly setting the mains to large and turning off the sub to get the best and flattest response.

I was originally using the Room EQ Wizard's frequency sweep and having the response graphed automatically. What I started working on today was manually measuring each frequency using the REW excel spreadsheets to take into account standing waves and everything else. What originally looked perfect in REW now looks like utter crap as my graph is all over the place. I'm now going to try adjusting the filters on my BFD using this manner instead to see if it makes an improvement.

Getting the bass right is the hardest freakin' thing I think I've ever had to figure out in my life.... seriously.

Can anyone here tell me if the VTF3-MK2 is supposed to go well with the RF-7's? I was originally told yes but now I'm not so sure....

I'm not a sub guru, by any means, but I have a Hsu STF-3 which is a step lower than yours and I like it a lot. I'll admit that I also tend to use it strickly for movies. Part of the reason is wanting the purest path possible between CD and speakers, so no digital filtering as when set to small. I would tend to use the speakers set to large AND send low frequancy contant to the sub if anything, but usually my sub is off for music. Perhaps I would think differently if I had a better sub, but that would cost some. BTW, I saw your post on avs and replied about my interest in hearing your RF-7 someday.

(Greetings Islander!)

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also did you calibrate the rs meter with the compensation chart?

The meter itself wasn't calibrated. I simply loaded the meter's calibration file in REW which should give the same end result. I just noticed that the Mic Cal graph shows most of it's frequencies below the target graph. I would imagine that this is because the RS meter isn't sensitive enough at lower levels which would mean that it detects 20Hz at 62db vs 75db (as an example). So I figured that my target should be the line that corresponds to the Mic Cal line.

Hmm, I never realized how the mic cal lin worked and if it does or not compensate, if I have time I will research it.

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also did you calibrate the rs meter with the compensation chart?

The meter itself wasn't calibrated. I simply loaded the meter's calibration file in REW which should give the same end result. I just noticed that the Mic Cal graph shows most of it's frequencies below the target graph. I would imagine that this is because the RS meter isn't sensitive enough at lower levels which would mean that it detects 20Hz at 62db vs 75db (as an example). So I figured that my target should be the line that corresponds to the Mic Cal line.

Hmm, I never realized how the mic cal lin worked and if it does or not compensate, if I have time I will research it.

You see, that's what my question is. You'll notice that the 'target' line eventually evens out and the 'mic cal' line also evens out. I THINK you're supposed to take the mic cal line and slide it up until each of the two lines is level with each other. I THINK you're supposed to then use the mic cal line INSTEAD of the target line and set your filters so that your reading matches your mic cal line... I THINK rolleyes.gif

Please please please.... someone... anyone... correct me if I'm wrong here because I'm not entirely sure.

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Getting the bass right is the hardest freakin' thing I think I've ever had to figure out in my life.... seriously.

Well you're never going to get it figured out trying to use any form of EQ...

The problem is that the bass issues in your room exist in the time-domain (reflections and all of the standing waves and all of the superposition happen because the sound takes time to bounce around the room). An EQ is a frequency-domain device and does not correct time-domain issues.

If you're interested, I can point you towards some time-domain solutions. If not, well I hope you enjoy beating your head against the wall [:P]

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