Chomping at the bit . . .

[Audio Flynn]

Craigs amps are the best I've heard yet, clairity and sound dynamics are beyond comprehension.

Wow, maybe I should buy a pair!

I think you need to hear more amps.

Not a clue whether this is a delusional or coherent comment.

Hmm, mind if I use that last line as my signature?

Sure as long as "delusional" is in bold italics.

[Gilbert]

If by "decent" you mean $1200 worth of Genelex, then no -- I never got to hear them with something like that. I did have them on the Furman with new tubes before I sold them. My comments weren't a rub on the VRD's, but on your characterization of their sound. I just thought it was funny that of all the words available to describe their sound, you chose those two -- words normally reserved for quality solid state. Now, as for recommending something "hands down better than the VRD's" -- that would depend on how you define "better". There may not be anything "better", or there may be quite a few things "better" -- depending on what you want from your sound.

What I mean be decent tubes is just about any NOS tube, i.e. not Chineese or Russian, although I have had some Wing "C", Sleventa's (or how ever you spell it) that I thought were pretty decent. As for the fancy schmancy NOS Genalex GOLD LION KT88's, those tube are IMHO, crappy when compared to the Black Plt. TungSol 6550's. And when you consider the cost differential, then the genalexes turn into a real POS. Make my power tubes TungSol's any day. I'll be selling off my Gold Lion's and other Genalex KT88 power tubes soon on ebay. I have no use, or desire to keep and listen to them. They suck compared to the TungSol's.

As for your recommending I listen to more amps, well, don't think that's going to change my choice of words used for describing sound. Perhap's you should have suggested I start reading some of those fancy Audiophile publications. But, even then, I don't think it would help me. But on the subject of listening to other systems, I have done some, but not as much as others. And I do, right now, have 4 working systems at my home. 5 if you count the BangOlfson 3 in 1 system. All systems are feeding Klipsch Heritage, and all are pretty decent systems, although one of the SS systems is setup primarily for HTS, the others are dedicated to 2 channel listening, and are used far more fequently than the HTS.

2 (or 3 considering the B&O) systems are Solid State, and 2 are Tubed. The VRD's, which are now well within the break-in period that Audible Nectar mentioned (& the cap. manuf. specified), do sound phenominal. I know, I know, phenominal is not a kosher or audiophile acceptable word (IYO) for describing sound, but it is, what it is. Craig's work (and of course Mark Deneen's) is awsome, and I am in love with my main listening system, which is the BBX and VRD, being fed from an MR71, Ah! Joeb, and at last the TD124.

By the way, I don't remember seeing a vinyl rig at your place (though it's been a few year now), but let me say this, vinyl is definitely king for music lovers. And if you still don't have one and really appreciate quality sound, you need to get one. The smoothness or continuity of the music is like flowing water. Sorry, for the Bubbaphile technical mumbo-jumbo, but you get my drift.

See Ya!! & take care dude.

[Deang]

Sure as long as "delusional" is in bold italics.

Probably has something to do with the little speakers I'm using.

What I mean be decent tubes is just about any NOS tube...

Nope, always too much money to seriously consider. A quad of NOS KT-88's cost as much or more as some other things that I'm pretty sure bring more benefit -- a pair of Trachorns for example.

As for your recommending I listen to more amps, well, don't think that's going to change my choice of words used for describing sound.

I was just giving you a little bit of grief. VRD's certainly have great dynamics, but I think a 200 wpc Aragon or Bryston would give them a good run. That's all I meant by the comment, no need to read anything else into it.

By the way, I don't remember seeing a vinyl rig at your place ...

No TT, not since the mid 80's. I do get to hear albums at my high school buddy's house a few times a year though when we get together to catch up and play with gear. I've also heard some nice set-ups at AKfest (Craig's, Audioflynn's, etc.). Good recordings sound awesome, bad ones sound terrible -- and I'll just say a well recorded and mixed CD will sound better than a badly recorded album. Doing it still has appeal to me though, and when the kids are a bit older I'll probably give it more serious consideration.

[anarchist]

Wow. Dean is treading dangerous ground with his almost sacrilegious statements concerning the VRD's.

Truth be told, many here wouldn't be able to differentiate VRD's with NOS tubes from Chinese "crap" with Russian tubes at most volume levels. Not reliably.

It would be very interesting to actually observe peoples reactions when they discovered where they ranked various amps in an honest comparison.

[gaspr]

Wow. Dean is treading dangerous ground with his almost sacrilegious statements concerning the VRD's.

Not that dangerous...Craig is gone fishing!![]

[Deang]

Really? Hell, if I'd know that I wouldn't have been so flattering.

[sheltie dave]

Air (to me) is the timbral decay of a piano note, or a plucked accoustical guitar note. It is the difference in a live hall performance, the buildup and crescendo as an audience roars when a musical passage is completed. Air is the space that is so startling when you finally hear it for the first time, previous systems fade to sepia. After you really hear it, air is not a quality you want to lose hearing.

As far as chasing for an amp that bests the VRDs in a normal price range(which is double what many people can afford to drop,) I haven't seen much competition. I have run some strong vintage contenders at them, and the VRDs still hold the Pantheon. As far as SS, I remember many people bitching about the graininess Brystons generate. The Mac MC250s fall short, and I am not willing to start dropping too much money on the stronger SS candidates. The QSCs handle themselves with aplomb to a certain point, and then they kick up a little glare I don't find attractive. Still, it is well past where I would drive any amp, with the demo being at Carl's basement of bass.

[stormin]

The QSCs handle themselves with aplomb to a certain point, and then they kick up a little glare I don't find attractive. Still, it is well past where I would drive any amp, with the demo being at Carl's basement of bass.

If you got glare out of a QSC then there was something else a miss IMHO. I find these things as glare free as they come or the SRA is in a league of its own I dunno.

I'll go along with lack of depth and air. These things are far from perfect but I've had mine kickin me hard, as in club style, and I've never seen a clip light flicker or heard the first hint of glare.

Heck I find its glare free performance its best trait. And to me its what makes it mate so well with horns. Any other amp I've ever owned I would get that god aweful glare. With this one I stop before the amp does. When I see the chorus II's flexin we are at the concert!

[cjgeraci]

The QSCs handle themselves with aplomb to a certain point, and then they kick up a little glare I don't find attractive. Still, it is well past where I would drive any amp, with the demo being at Carl's basement of bass.

If you got glare out of a QSC then there was something else a miss IMHO. I find these things as glare free as they come or the SRA is in a league of its own I dunno.

I'll go along with lack of depth and air. These things are far from perfect but I've had mine kickin me hard, as in club style, and I've never seen a clip light flicker or heard the first hint of glare.

Heck I find its glare free performance its best trait. And to me its what makes it mate so well with horns. Any other amp I've ever owned I would get that god aweful glare. With this one I stop before the amp does. When I see the chorus II's flexin we are at the concert!

No, nothing has been wrong when Dave's heard a QSC PLX on my rig. Let me qualify, you do get a hint of glare with QSC PLX 1202s, yes - even with a nice tube preamp, only with CDs (not vinyl) and only at insane volume levels that I like (that are higher than Dave prefers). That has been the case for RF-7s (Dean modded) and various Heritage (w/K77s, Beymas, and Bob's tweeters). And its not just been my system. We've demoed a QSC PLX on Dave's systems as well. Like he said, it will outperform most other solid state I've ever heard, but it does have its limits glare-wise once you get up to very, very loud...........

So, the SRA must be in a league of its own, solid state-wise. Or.....your Chorus IIs are special. Just out of curiousity, have you ever had your crossovers rebuilt on your Chorus, and how old are they?

Of course, I must qualify that I do not experience any glare anymore on my modded Klipschorns at extreme volume levels, but I would not expect to either - with the VRDs.

Carl.

[stormin]

.So, the SRA must be in a league of its own, solid state-wise. Or.....your Chorus IIs are special.

Carl.

Hi Carl,

Well I doubt the SRA is much different than the PLX.[*-)] I do know the Chorus II's are special.[] But its weird that glare is what I get from Aragon and every other big SS I've had but haven't noticed a hint of it here. I do think my spec'd up Marantz 2325 has a sweet pre section. It's been by far the best combination I have heard with the QSC. I've even ran without a preamp direct from Sony ES player and haven't noticed any glare.

As far as volume. LOL. I get right up there with the best of them[]

Another thought. When you noticed this glare were your clip lights beginning to flicker?

PS: Maybe its those 1% precision resistors in the input stage of the SRA[] Or at double the power maybe I just give up before any glare gets there[:|]

One last mention on the subject that has absolute nothing to do with this thread. QSC is just a good bang for the buck . There is better out there folks but you will need to peel a little more green from the wallet.

[cjgeraci]

.So, the SRA must be in a league of its own, solid state-wise. Or.....your Chorus IIs are special.

Carl.

Hi Carl,

Well I doubt the SRA is much different than the PLX.[*-)] I do know the Chorus II's are special.[] But its weird that glare is what I get from Aragon and every other big SS I've had but haven't noticed a hint of it here. I do think my spec'd up Marantz 2325 has a sweet pre section. It's been by far the best combination I have heard with the QSC. I've even ran without a preamp direct from Sony ES player and haven't noticed any glare.

As far as volume. LOL. I get right up there with the best of them[]

Another thought. When you noticed this glare were your clip lights beginning to flicker?

PS: Maybe its those 1% precision resistors in the input stage of the SRA[] Or at double the power maybe I just give up before any glare gets there[:|]

No, I don't recall the clip lights beginning to flicker, but now you have me curious. I still run a QSC PLX on my rear Belles, and I might have to hook it back up to the modded Klipschorns again - and let 'er rip.

Yes, I know that Chorus II are special and the comment was tongue-in-check. I asked the question about their age though because as older caps (in the crossovers) dry out, you sometimes lose some detail on the upper end - but an added benefit is more tolerance at higher volumes (sans glare) - as opposed to new crossovers or freshened caps. That explanation does not seem to apply here because you related that you've had glare with all prior ss amps and none with the SRA. On the other hand, the first thing I've always done with all of my speakers has been the crossover upgrade (or freshening) thing as I hate listening as though there was a blanket over the speakers. Again, the crossover analysis may not apply here because like I said, the QSC has been smooth for you and other solid state - not so much.

Again, to put things into perspective, my QSC PLXs have been outstanding as far as ss goes. Previously, I've had some decent ss amps, and the QSC PLX even replaced a Rotel 1080 (when I took a break from tubes for awhile)- and I prefer the QSC. But, at least here, on my speakers, the QSC PLX have their limits. You can get to a glare point.

Carl.

[Audio Flynn]

Wow. Dean is treading dangerous ground with his almost sacrilegious statements concerning the VRD's.

Truth be told, many here wouldn't be able to differentiate VRD's with NOS tubes from Chinese "crap" with Russian tubes at most volume levels. Not reliably.

It would be very interesting to actually observe peoples reactions when they discovered where they ranked various amps in an honest comparison.

Glad I waited around for "the truth".

How many individuals were involved in your controlled double blind testing? The data should make for an interesting read.

As far as 200 watt SS amps being at a musical par with a well designed and built tube amp like an upgraded vintage or VRD, here is my list of the ones (some less than 200 watts) who sounded fatiguing and unmusical.

Adcom

Bryston

Sherwood Newcastle

McIntosh

MF

Parasound

Dennon

Crown

Phase Linear

B&K was pretty unfatigued but lacked air and decay. I expect BAT would be good but the opportunity to listen to one has not presented itself as yet.

[anarchist]

Glad I waited around for "the truth".

How many individuals were involved in your controlled double blind testing?

You volunteering?

Want to place a wager on your ability to correctly identify a VRD from an upgraded Dynaco Mark III or a good Chinese amp or a chip amp for that matter? How about your ability to identify the VRD as the best sounding amp?

[Allan Songer]

Glad I waited around for "the truth".

How many individuals were involved in your controlled double blind testing?

You volunteering?

Want to place a wager on your ability to correctly identify a VRD from an upgraded Dynaco Mark III or a good Chinese amp or a chip amp for that matter? How about your ability to identify the VRD as the best sounding amp?

Even though I have only heard the VRDs once and only for a couple of hours under less than ideal condtions, I would bet the FARM I could pick out the VRDs in a blind test against a chip amp or a Chinese tube amp. And I doubt very much I could identify the VRDs against the the Mark IIIs.

[anarchist]

Even though I have only heard the VRDs once and only for a couple of hours under less than ideal condtions, I would bet the FARM I could pick out the VRDs in a blind test against a chip amp or a Chinese tube amp. And I doubt very much I could identify the VRDs against the the Mark IIIs.

A man with confidence and a sense of reality. Its a shame Allan you aren't on this side of the country. I bet you could with certain Chinese amps - I also believe you would not with others.

I am sure nothing will materialize out of this but I am interested in improving our knowledge and determining if hard data (based on a mix of people) would confirm what I and a few others have come to understand.

I propose a get together where we can establish a mix of equipment and conduct such a test. No one but a few would even know WHAT equipment was being auditioned and we would use a mix of songs intended to "explore" various aspects of an amps capabilities. It is easy to claim this amp or that amp is the best. It is easy to

say you hear an incredible difference. I suggest proving it is far,

far harder.

I think the results would be surprising to many. I also think many would then complain endlessly that such a test was biased and the results were not remotely indicative of reality. They would complain the volume was too low, the volume was too high, the music wasn't right, the speakers were too far apart, the cables obscured this one or that ones performance AND even more likely - the test was invalid and the results unreliable because "Anarchist" was involved.

[gonzp]

   Since I live in Cheyenne Wy. I would be located close to center!  I would be willing to host at my home a get together that can put some of these challenges up.  I have VRD's a BBXTreme a pair ok K-horns, LaScalas and heresays. I have also got a pair of 99D Scott mono integrateds and an Almarro A318A 18 WPC set amp[]

[sheltie dave]

Anarchist, why don't we make it a triple blind test and only use wives who do not listen to our equipment, to make it "completely" fair. There are a number of people who have spent months dialing in their system, selecting the preferred driver preamp tubes, listening to three or four different brands of output tubes, comparing patch and speaker cords, getting it just so - and you propose they could not identify their amp sound when run against other amps?

At my normal listening level, I know precisely the sound I will get out of the Teac chimp amp(sic,) the Monarchy SM70, the Mac MC250, and the Marantz 2230 with the Dean modded RF7s upstairs on the two channel HT setup. Likewise, I know within two songs which version of Pink Floyd's DSOTM is playing - oldest cd, newer cd, lp, HDCD, or the 5.1 mix. I can tell you how the Mac MC240, VRDs, Scott 299C, Horus based Eric built SET, Marantz 8B, and HK 630 sound on the KHorns downstairs.

There is a big, big difference between hearing music and listening to music. Those people who select their equipment through listening trials will have little difficulty replicating the process in a double blind test, given the ability to control the musical content and volume. The people who hear music as a background event may not develop the same sympatico that allows a person to recreate a vivid passage or snippet and accurately frame it for storage. It takes training to become adept at this.

As far as the continued foisting that VRDs are Dynacos in lambs' clothing, I have a Musical Concepts modded ST70, Carl has their modded MKIIIs, and we have heard a set of the 1970s modded MKiiis that Capn Bob knows about loves, and they never came close. The front end, the transients, clarity, imaging, and straining were all lacking. Gary has Craig's original hot rods, and has heard VRDs, and even then it is hard to say the MKiiis are the same thing.

At work my hearing, sight, and smell are my first and primary safety tools. If I can't hear a plenum fan's contribution die amidst four other blowers going, a negative pressure howl from the hallway, a chemist banging a pot inside a glovebox, pneumatic valves cycling, and a chiller cycling, then the chemist can end up with a year's radiation exposure, even while wearing a respirator, in under a minute. If you can concentrate on critical listening, you will have no problem with double blind testing of amps you know intimately.

[ben.]

What are SRA?

[anarchist]

Sheltie,

I propose psycho-acoustics plays a large role in what people perceive they hear. Yes, I suggest in a double-blind test, even your golden-ears would have a difficult time picking out one good tube amp from another good tube amp. Lots of people have claimed they can do this or that... tests haven't borne out those claims.

Your sensitivity to statements about VRD's is unfounded and makes little sense. VRD's are modded Dynaco's per Craigs own mouth. Are they Dynaco Mark III's? No. Will they sound like stock Dynaco Mark III's? No. I submit, however, under certain conditions, it would be extremely difficult to reliably identify one from the other. The only argument that can be made is they are a better mod than other mods and only someone who has listened to all of the available mods and compared them could answer that definitively (and even then I question the repeatability of their choice in a double-blind).

I have no doubt that Craigs implementation is a good one. Hell, I entertained the idea of buying a set on more than one occasion until I was able to get the deal I got on my Mark III's and frankly, I enjoyed modifying them myself so I am glad things played out the way they did. For someone interested in a turnkey solution, Craigs amps are certainly worthy.

Lastly, I wasn't interested in an argument about VRD's; substitute whatever you like in there. My point was people claim they can hear this and that and attempt to make subjective statements appear to be objective evidence; I merely suggest objective evidence seems to contradict their claims.

Hell, to make it even more interesting, we could have mas treat the room, Dr. Who measure everything, and do all listening tests on Dean's Jubilees while rolling the music I choose. Still think you will be able to identify one amp vs another? Think you will be able to pick out "your" amp? Think you will be able to pick out the "VRD's?" What about the Chinese amp? Maybe you or some other golden-eared audiophile with 100% sound retention and perfect memory could do it... but I would have to see it to believe it.

[maxg]

Not to get all Schroedinger about this but I have spent a fair bit of time considering the implications of double blinds on audio equipment - and partaken in a few tests myself and have come to the conclusion that the act of testing directly effects the observations themselves.

Music listening, for me, is all about mood. It not only affects my choice of material it also affects how I listen. Sometimes - when I am in an all analytical mood I choose deliberately superb recordings (as a primary objective) and then listen to the system.

Other times, when I just want to chill out, I choose superb performances and then listen to the music. (So sad that the 2 so rarely coincide!)

The thing is - I cannot force my own choice. Under test, however, there is always an element of stress (totally new element) along with the desire to "get it right". For me this seems to result in listening so intently I don't actually hear anything - I am thinking all the time "did that piano note decay the same way?" Or, "was that lead violin as far forward on the last system?" This goes on ad-infinitum and large parts of the playback simply pass me by. I swear that during one of these thought processes they could change from Opera to Rap for a few seconds I would probably miss it.

The funny thing is - whilst listening in my musical mood I often pick up things on the playback that I dont when I am being analytical. I hate to use that tired expression "PRaT" (it is probably not even quite the right term) but it is only when I am really lost in the music that I appreciate the tone and rythm of the piece - the overall flow if you like.

I will relate a quick story here:

I was over at a friend of a friend's house who was building a new CD player. He had 2 outputs on the unit - balanced and unbalanced. Whilst I was there he asked me which one I prefered of 2 choices - he did not tell me what he was changing as I recall.

Anyway - he plays back over the balanced and then over the unbalanced - without bothering to adjust the volume. I was only semi-concentrating - if at all really and, as luck would have it, he was playnig back a favorite piece of mine. I chose the unbalanced connection instinctively and told him so - the music just came across much better and over the balanced connection it was too harsh.

He was stunned and complimented my hearing. Apparently everyone else that was asked chose the louder balanced connections. It was as a result of this I got involved in some double blind tests. In those I failed miserably. I guess due to the fact I was not as relaxed as I was at his house where in reality I didn't give a monkey's.

To bring this back to VRD's Verses anything else - you may well - under test conditions, show that no-one can pick them out from a Yamaha surround sound amp operating in 2 channel mode - but that does not mean that in the quiet of one's own home this would be true.

Just my 0.02