Just in - Review of RSW-15, SVS Ultra & HGS 18

[boa12]

actually the babes should love the tubes. u know that pierre cardin phallus thing

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My Home Systems Page

[toussi1]

Are you telling me i can't create an SVS? With high excursion driver and a BOX program, you can easily create an SVS that could even surpass and SVS as some people have created. What i am trying to say is that what they are doing is not rocket science. It is a well known fact that the bigger the box, the deeper the bass response... to a point. With a box design program, you pop in the prameters of a high quality woofer you can buy for $150, get the perfect ration of bass extension to SPL from the program and BAM you start building that box for around another $100, plus a 250 watt amp from parts express for another $150. For about $400 you can have a SVS. As what drivers you use i would probably pick a CERWIN VEGA VEGA series with a xmas of 19mm or for a few bucks more an audiomobile sub. Adire subs are really popular too.

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http://www.autodirectsave.com

[TheEAR]

Mike L.,

I am all for the economical and well designed SVS subs.

I am a big time SVS Ultra fan,damit.

But please stop this kind of joke...

"And for what it's worth, the SVS tubes take up less floor space than the Sunfire."

Mr take out your calculator and do some very basic math.The largest Sunfire is the Signature.The Signature is a 13" cube.The SVS subs are made in 16" diameter cylinders.

Like it or not the SVS takes more floor space.This for the sake of the argument since I dont care how much space a sub takes as long as it performs well(and the SVS does).

So Mr

The Sunfire takes 169 square inches of floor space.

The SVS takes 201 square inches of floor space.

Not open for debate,its a fact Jack.

Thank you.

toussi1,

Yes the cylinder sub design is the easy way to get great bass.But why complicate simple but working design?

Compact subs are more compes to design well,as most have serious problems(besides the Sunfire and Velodyne).

SVS subs use heavy duty drivers in solid cabinets(cylinders).I like this simple design and money can be spent on drivers and amp.Where it counts most(ssub bass response that is).

My two cents

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[TVodhanel]

>>>Are you telling me i can't create an SVS? With high excursion driver and a BOX program, you can easily create an SVS that could even surpass and SVS as some people have created.<<<

Nice business model,

If it's that easy,just jump into it then? Competition brings out the best in everyone IMO. As they say,

dont sing it, bring it...

>>> As what drivers you use i would probably pick a CERWIN VEGA VEGA series with a xmas of 19mm or for a few bucks more an audiomobile sub.<<<

I'm not sure how you decided that finished commercial products should compete on a price/performance basis with some DIY box you may build someday...maybe using a CV driver and maybe using a PE amp...???

*maybe* you can start up this business model fast enough and ask Brian if he'd be interested in adding your wonderful designs to his next shootout...I'll look forward to it.

>>>Mr take out your calculator and do some very basic math.The largest Sunfire is the Signature.The Signature is a 13" cube.The SVS subs are made in 16" diameter cylinders.Like it or not the SVS takes more floor space.This for the sake of the argument since I dont care how much space a sub takes as long as it performs well(and the SVS does)So Mr,The Sunfire takes 169 square inches of floor space.The SVS takes 201 square inches of floor space.Not open for debate,its a fact Jack.<<<

If you wanted to be fair, the SIG would need at least a 14" x 14" square because the driver surround sticks out so far. So as footprints go...the sig and the SV are very close. We're not really concerned with the cute-box arena regardless...I don't like the inherent performance compromises that must be made.

TV

[TheEAR]

TV,

If memory serves me well Mike L. said...

"And for what it's worth, the SVS tubes take up less floor space than the Sunfire."

Did you read?

The debate WAS about LESS floor space taken by the SVS over the Sunfire Signature(largest Sunfire).Claims should be supported by numbers(as you often said).

Again TV,

EVEN if you STREEEETCH the sunfire to 14*14 it still will take less floor space.So Mike's argument was based on fairy tales.

Again

14*14 is 196 square inches(STREEEETCHED for your satisfaction. LOL

A 16" cylinder takes 201 square inches

Now what more can be said?

NOTHING of value

The fact is(yes its a fact,numbers dont lie)the Sunfire EVEN if streeeeetched to 14 inches cubes takes less floor space.

And FYI the Sunfire is a bit under 14*13.

And I even added...

This for the sake of the argument since I dont care how much space a sub takes as long as it performs well(and the SVS does)."

I said I did not care the SVS takes more space as it provides MORE clean output.And more output is better then less floor space and lesser output.

I rest my case

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[TVodhanel]

>>>If memory serves me well Mike L. said...

"And for what it's worth, the SVS tubes take up less floor space than the Sunfire."

Did you read?<<<

Yes,

Unfortunately you seem more concerned with some cheap debating advantage rather than worrying about the practical applications of the topic in a HT environment.

>>>The debate WAS about LESS floor space taken by the SVS over the Sunfire Signature(largest Sunfire).Claims should be supported by numbers(as you often said).<<<

You never seem to bother...why demand it from anyone else all of a sudden?

>>>Again TV,

EVEN if you STREEEETCH the sunfire to 14*14 it still will take less floor space.So Mike's argument was based on fairy tales.<<<

There's really no *stretch* involved. That's the amount of space the SIG takes up...

The way you look at things, I can put a frisbee under a SV and claim it has half the footprint of a SIG now?

And if you believe the Carver hyperbole...that driver/PR is claimed to move 3" p-p right? So that's actually 14.5 x 14.5 of space requirements.

BTW---contrary to the sudden influx of internet subwoofer design experts---

you can copy a sig just as well as a cylinder using those *boxmodel* programs. The reason more *DIYers* don't bother...is because once you start learning a little bit about the trade-offs involved...you quickly realize how much you're giving up by trying to milk a bunch of bass from a small cube.

TV

[TheEAR]

TV,

"you can copy a sig just as well as a cylinder using those *boxmodel* programs. The reason more *DIYers* don't bother...is because once you start learning a little bit about the trade-offs involved...you quickly realize how much you're giving up by trying to milk a bunch of bass from a small cube."

Sunfire and Velodyne did it well.For the size of the subs.Most of the space inside is taken by the driver so considering the net internal volume its still a kick to hear a tiny cube(be it Sunfire or Velodyne)to output so much deep bass.

3 inches peak to peak! No I dont belive this.Who told you I belive this?

Its harder to design a good compact sub then a very good large one.A BIG driver in a BIG cabinet driven by a BIG(power)amp will produce BIG SPL.If it fails to shake the foundation then one driver works in phase and the second out of phase. LOL

Mike Stehr,

See far from a dead topic!

Its a 12 rounder to the finish

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[Mike Lindsey]

Boy, look what I started...

Ears, I did not even know how big the Sunfire was, so it was just a guess on my part but I figured it would be close (and it is). My mistake on the actual measurements. I just didn't like the way Toussil came to the conclusion that this sub is like all the others and the technology is nothing new. I'll bet you that Tom and Ron put thousands of hours into development before they came up with their product(s)...

Mike

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My Music Systems

[cybergeek]

Tom, I don't fault you at all for offering up the most subs the reviewer would allow. But you have offered up 3 or 4 of your subs before on this BBS when others have talked about using 2 of the higher price subs in comparison. So the question is where do you draw the line? A friend of mine uses 4 Vel HGS-18. You would have to use 4 SVS Ultra to at least equal those in loudness. And then there's the quality issues.

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live long & prosper

This message has been edited by cybergeek on 12-22-2001 at 08:46 AM

[eglinski]

Thears, I believe that my Bag End Infro-Sub 18 is the real King, output down to 8 CYCLES PER SECOND!!! thats not 18 thats 8 talk about energizing a room, WOW! But the best thing is its extremely musical with correct pitch and timbre this is real music to me, no artificial sounding BOOM-BOOM sound here just real music. The Bag End keeps up with my modified K-Horns very well and I plan on getting a second one to be the absolute end all for music reproduction. You may think that I just dont Know but I've been into this Hi-Fi hobby for 25 years the home theater surround stuff is new to me,and yes I to watch DVD movies and concerts on my big screen with Cornwalls and Sunfire MK-2 Happy Hollidays. Ed

[TheEAR]

Mike L.,

No problem,hatchet burried.

cybergeek,

FYI even if you use four HGS-18's the ourput still will be lesser(down low where it counts,since a sub should be cut no higher than 80Hz),two Ultras with a solid amp beat four HGS-18's in output(on real sub bass).

eglinski,

The BagEnd Infra 18 may go very low,but it also has very low output that low.To be of real value a BIG sub should output AT least 100dB at the given frequency...IN ROOM...not at 0.5m from the driver.

The Infra 18 is outperformed by the HGS-18 on most material.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[cybergeek]

Ear, show me the review where 2 Ultra beat 4 Hgs-18 in output anywhere below 100HZ. Below 20HZ 1 ultra is about equal to 1 HGS-18 give or take a DB. Just look at the comp graph in this review and subtract 6db from the Ultras. And it looks to me that the HGS-18 does better down low than this test indicates. Maybe they werent let loose for the sake of that better quality.

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live long & prosper

[eglinski]

The Ears I didnt think the Hgs-18 outperformed the bag end on well recorded music, actually I thought the Hgs-12 sounded better on music than the Hgs-18. Also the Sunfire "outperforms" the Bag End on paper (spl)also but in my stereo room 830sq/ft with 11 ft. ceilings and K-Horns there was no comparison the Sunfire sounded like it was "working hard and PUMPING" whereas the Bag End was smooth natural and very extended-powerfully. also Bag End is the personal choice of many musicians (used professionaly) check out the testonomials at their websight, bottom line Bag End subs are highly respected among the pros. The price is very resonable also. Ed.

[TVodhanel]

>>>Tom, I don't fault you at all for offering up the most subs the reviewer would allow. But you have offered up 3 or 4 of your subs before on this BBS when others have talked about using 2 of the higher price subs in comparison. So the question is where do you draw the line?<<<

I don't draw any lines, I let the HT enthusiasts draw their own lines.

>>>A friend of mine uses 4 Vel HGS-18. You would have to use 4 SVS Ultra to at least equal those in loudness.<<<

No you wouldn't...a $2295 dual CS_U/S1000 package would pretty much match or exceed the 4 HGS18s($12,000?) across the board.

Look at the notepad file from Brian.

>>>And then there's the quality issues<<<

Sure, but some folks swear by the servo circuits,some think they sound very poor(esp for music reproduction)...so arguing what amounts to a personal preference is like debating when Pay it Forward should have ended(as soon as the videotape ended of course).

>>>Thears, I believe that my Bag End Infro-Sub 18 is the real King, output down to 8 CYCLES PER SECOND!!! thats not 18 thats 8 talk about energizing a room, WOW! But the best thing is its extremely musical with correct pitch and timbre this is real music to me, no artificial sounding BOOM-BOOM sound here just real music. The Bag End keeps up with my modified K-Horns very well and I plan on getting a second one to be the absolute end all for music reproduction. You may think that I just dont Know but I've been into this Hi-Fi hobby for 25 years the home theater surround stuff is new to me,and yes I to watch DVD movies and concerts on my big screen with Cornwalls and Sunfire MK-2 Happy Hollidays. Ed<<<

The infra doesn't have a prayer <35hz. Seal enclosure,70hz resonant freq(12dB/octave rolloff at 70hz),massive EQIng to maintain a flat response signature needed,and a limited excursion driver(3-4mm xmax).

It's a good unit >32-35hz,but that's about it.

TV

[iXtreme]

..... my cat's breath smells like cat food......

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Don't count on me, to let you know when.....

Don't count on me, I'll do it again.

Don't count on me, it's the point you're missing.

Don't count on me, cause I'm not listening.

[kleggatt]

I think that the output of all three subs is nuts. I currently only watch movies at about 30 on the volume dial of my Denon 3801. This is a bit on the quite side, I do turn it now and again but I know that alot of the out put of the SVS would be lost on me. So what it comes down to is what sound good with music as that is about 80% of what I listen to and the reviewer seemed quite positive that all of them were good for this purpose. So when it comes down to it they are all solid performers in this respect. The SVS though is King of output and bass and if I had a sound proof house it is the one I would have.

[mike stehr]

Find a large old growth hardwood tree out in the

forrest, at least 42' to 45' complete

diameter, cut it down, get the select chunk

you need, figure how tall you want the enclosure.

Get all the bark, etc.. from the outside of the chunk.

Find a BIG lathe, smooth out the outside, then

carve out the center,leaving around 4' for thickness

of the enclosure, smooth it all out, then

cap the ends, should be plenty of wood left.

Then use four 18 incher's of whatever preference,

break out your favorite speaker design software,

install in either end, then port out the other

end,(I'm sure it will take more than one port.)

Build a pedestal of some sort for the bottom,

it will probably need caster wheels.

Finish the enclosure with whatever choice,

IMO, natural finish with about a million coats

of laquer.

There, now that's the most non-practical, way over

budget, DIY subwoofer project that I can imagine.

THANX!

[TVodhanel]

>>If I want bass that is fast, tight and has 'slam' - what sub should I be looking at?<<

The problem is once subjective terminology like *fast,tight and slam* is introduced...there's no way to really qualify it.(you may think *X* has slam...but no one else might).

One important aspect of performance besides output capability is obviously the response signature. As we see...at louder output levels...the response signature of some subwoofers can rolloff surprisingly hard in 30-50hz range. Some feel an important aspect of the accuracy of the subwoofer lies in how close it will reproduce the input signal. If this ability degrades as the volume levels reach moderate levels...

Maybe Brian could measure the response of each subwoofer...using 5dB steps next time? Then you could see how the subwoofer begins to strain(changing it's actual response signature in the process) as the output levels are increased.

Also, the *notepad* file is a little messed up(at least it is on my screen when I open it). The *HGS* moniker is over the ksw15 data on my screen. On closer review...>40hz...the single HGS18 did well(although I'm sure the CS_Ultras weren't close to maxxed out >40hz either)...having about the same measured output as the package from svs. However, UNDER 40hz...it would still take 3-4 HGS18s to match the data published for the SVS package.

It should also be noted that the levels produced by the HGS18 <40hz were hardly the *deafening* SPLs that some seem to be misinterpreting them as. From 20-38hz....it shows 100-104dB. So that's 11-15dB under reference level with all speakers set to large..and a full 17-21dB under minimum reference levels with all speakers set to small.

TV

[TheEAR]

TV,

Thanks for the repply to cyber. and eg..

You are correct two Ultras driven by a potent amp plaster four HGS18's where it counts...UNDER 60Hz.

Who cares what a sub can do above 80Hz...its supposed to be a sub WOOFER.Not a woofer damit.

So the fact the RSW15 and HGS18 have BIG output over 70Hz means bull.

The HGS18 is a great sub,make no mistake.But I did not buy it to crack plaster under 30Hz.The Revel B15 can crack plaster more and costs the same.Two Sunfire Signature can do this too,cost will be greater...but look at the size!

And we have the plaster blaster deluxe..the SVS Ultras.

Remarkable output below 80Hz(where it counts).

I think four SVS SS would make me happy for a long time

TV for when the SVS SS?

I will wait for the SS to be out,for some positive reviews and tests and then its a go.FOUR SVS SS...no amp,I may use my ATI 2505(400W RMS per ch/all channels driven into 4 Ohms)or two Carver TFM-75's(I am in the process to get my second TFM-75 ...1KW RMS per channel into 4 Ohms!!!).

Then it will be BRING ON ANY SUB

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[eglinski]

Respectfully, I believe that the Bag End sub sounds better with real music to me than HGS, Sunfire,M&K,Boston,Mirage,Def-Tech,Klipsch,and Hsu these are the subs that I have auditioned I have not heard SVS orRSW-15 I do know that my Sunfire is rated to 18cps and in the real world and real room listening my Bag End trounces my Sunfire in bass extention and powerful sound and natural energizing of room. Maybe the highest SPL measurments do not tell everything, before I bought the Bag End I recieved all the measurment and outputs/frequencies for 1 thru 4 infro subs from Bag End they didnt lie, they told me that if I listened to K-Horns very loud that 1 Infro sub could not keep up (spl) and offerd other possible soulotions of a double s18e cab ect. I decided to by one Infro-sub and try it in my system and am very happy Ill probalbly by another in the future just for movies when I get a projecter and 100 in. screen. at between $1100-$1600 ea. v.g. value I have a freind that owns a pro music store and I get "the family" discount BTW Madison Square Gardens most recent sound system upgrade engineers chose Bag End subwoofer to handle the job not because of price but because they sounded the best! along with many other pro sound studios and churches There are hundreds of speaker that have come and gone over the years that out perform K-Horns But we all know BETTER!! Ed.