f-113 subwoofer woofing too much!!!

[SWL]

A while ago I was doing the same thing with a Klipsch LF-10 so that I could hear it more. I was getting the same noises you are describing. YOU GOTTA TURN IT DOWN, MAN!!!!!! Everything's maxed out, your trim or gain has to be tamed. Listen to these guys...........they know their subs. Good luck. (you won't need much with that sub)

[DrWho]

Otherwise, what did I spend my $3,300 for?

A small cabinet.

[CECAA850]

Purchase a disc like "Avia". Plop it in your dvd player and let it walk you through the calibration process. Have your meter ready. Take all readings from the position that you normally sit at.

[TheEAR]

Otherwise, what did I spend my $3,300 for?

A small cabinet.

A slight correction...

Best in class woofer,amp and built quality.

It is unfortunate the sub does not come with proper automatic proper setup,to eliminate the everything hot setups. []

[Roc Rinaldi]

With the sound meter use it with every thing playing. It works best if you have a demo disk that plays specific frequencies so you can narrow it down. I mean just tell me this, when the sub starts making noise, are you really cranking your system? Is it very loud? If so I think you just hit the peak out put on the sub and your woofer is hitting the basket.

Yes, I am really cranking the system when the noise occurs. But I would have thought that the sub would be designed so that it does not make this noise when it peaks? I would have thought that the sub would be designed so that it does not hit the basket and therefore does not make the noise.

[Roc Rinaldi]

Sounds like you may be running it "hot".

Needs proper calibrating.

I will agree with the above.

Plus a question for Roc, whe you say you hear artifacts when pushing the sub ..remove the grill and look at the driver cone...how many inches is the cone moving(total back and forth)...two inches...three inches or more. If it is under 3.5inches you should have ZERO such problems....and do you have a dedicated free 15A line? If shared with how many devices?

My JL f113's can reach huge excusions ....cone travel to what I would estimate at over 3 inches and no parasitic noise to report...there is very slight mechanical noise...it is minimal...nowhere to the point to call attention or bother me.Any sub driver has mechanical noise,simply it cannot intrude on the signal being reproduces in a noticable way.

What does it mean to be "running hot"?

When the noise occurs the cone is moving more than three inches. The noise occurs when I play my f-113 quite loud with certain special effects with movies. This does not happen when I play just music.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

This only occurs with extremely low frequencies. What I hear is something like a rapping or "thrapping" sound coming from the sub at high volumes. It almost sounds like distortion.

It doesn't sound like just a low note sound but rather more like a "rapping" sound. It doesn't sound right to me.

I have the sub's volume control turned all the way up. The sub has a 25 Hz separate volume control that goes from -15 to +3 db. I have this set all the way up at +3 db.

I am using these settings because I really want the sub to contribute a lot to the sound.

My A/V controller is set to 60 Hz and sends all 60 Hz and lower signals to the sub.

It only happens on extreme sounds of special effects in movies. The rest of the time for movies and music it does not make the rapping sound.

So this is occurring at high volume levels, with only extremely low frequencies. Other than when this happens, the sub is performing perfectly.

I have a dedicated 15 amp. electric line for just this sub.

[Roc Rinaldi]

So you've got the master volume maxed out and the 25Hz and under control maxed out and you're wondering what the problem is on extremely loud extremely low end effects???????????

Every product has limits. Congratulations on finding the limits of this very fine product.

You may have stumbled upon the answer to my problem.

[Roc Rinaldi]

I have the sub's volume control turned all the way up. The sub has a 25 hz separate volume control that goes from -15 to +3 db. I have this set all the way up at +3 db.

Proper calibration is essential. Your dials set all the way up is not healthy at these volumes. Everything has a limit

I sounds perhaps like you're expecting too much. Your $3k isn't all SPL, it's about clarity and realism, too. Are you used to car audio where the bass can literally suck the breath out of you? Home theater subs won't work like that (of course there are extreme exceptions).

No I'm not used to car audio. I do, however, like my music and effects LOUD, so maybe I'm just dealing with the upper limits of the subs capabilities, which is OK with me. This unusual sound has only happened like three times. Once when watching "War of the Worlds", once when watching "Superman Returns" and a third time with some other movie. It only occurs for a brief period of time when it does occur. I can live with it as long as the sub is not defective.

[Roc Rinaldi]

A while ago I was doing the same thing with a Klipsch LF-10 so that I could hear it more. I was getting the same noises you are describing. YOU GOTTA TURN IT DOWN, MAN!!!!!! Everything's maxed out, your trim or gain has to be tamed. Listen to these guys...........they know their subs. Good luck. (you won't need much with that sub)

Thanks SWL. I'm starting to get the message. I guess I was listening too literally to all of the rave reviews of this sub. The critics tend to describe it as if it were some sort of super device with super human capabilities. They use terms like "indestructable" and "gut wrenching".

[Roc Rinaldi]

Otherwise, what did I spend my $3,300 for?

A small cabinet.

That's a good point Mike. The f-113 is in an unbelievably small cabinet for all of the sound it puts out. One of the problems generally with all of the more powerful subs is their large size. It is extremely valuable to find a sub that is relatively small but with a BIG sound. But I'm pretty sure my $3,300 bought me just a little more than only a small cabinet.

[DrWho]

Big is a problem?!?

*sigh*

"Hoffman's Iron Law"

[xdetroitx]

Look's like you will have to wait for the Gotham to be officially released to be truly happy!!!

[Roc Rinaldi]

Big is a problem?!?

*sigh*

"Hoffman's Iron Law"

What is the "Iron Law"?

[Roc Rinaldi]

Look's like you will have to wait for the Gotham to be officially released to be truly happy!!!

The last time that I checked the Gotham had a planned retail price of around $9,000.

I'll be getting one when pigs fly.

I'm shocked that I got the f-113 because it costs so much. No way that I can afford the Gotham. No way.

[Frzninvt]

You are overdriving it and bottoming the woofer out on the backplate! JL Audio is way overrated in the car audio world and they have been making home subwoofers how long now? A year. Gimme a break! That is a 13W7 car audio woofer adapted into a home cabinet with a JL Audio Plate amp regardless of the specs and what it can do. At $3K there are other and better choices. We'll see how well it works in the next 5 to 10 years.

My Velodyne's (They have been making subs for more than 20 years) won't do that since they are Servo controlled, the cone movement is measured thousands of times a second and any inconsistencies corrected. Loud, Deep and really, really low. No 60Hz Boom here!

[Roc Rinaldi]

You are overdriving it and bottoming the woofer out on the backplate! JL Audio is way overrated in the car audio world and they have been making home subwoofers how long now? A year. Gimme a break! That is a 13W7 car audio woofer adapted into a home cabinet with a JL Audio Plate amp regardless of the specs and what it can do. At $3K there are other and better choices. We'll see how well it works in the next 5 to 10 years.

My Velodyne's (They have been making subs for more than 20 years) won't do that since they are Servo controlled, the cone movement is measured thousands of times a second and any inconsistencies corrected. Loud, Deep and really, really low. No 60Hz Boom here!

Yea, it looks like it is bottoming out. This is disappointing since I would have expected that the sub was designed not to make the sound/noise no matter what.

[Frzninvt]

It looks to be a great product, with lots of positives. Perhaps a little tweaking and adjusting. I run my Velodyne's volume level on "4" never needed any more than that. Adjusment on the preamp is typically at "0" or +1 crossed at 80Hz. Bring the crossover point to 80Hz and you will get more output out of it and back the volume control down to about 6-7 you should be fine.

[michael hurd]

"You are overdriving it and bottoming the woofer out on the backplate! JL Audio is way overrated in the car audio world and they have been making home subwoofers how long now? A year. Gimme a break! That is a 13W7 car audio woofer adapted into a home cabinet with a JL Audio Plate amp regardless of the specs and what it can do. At $3K there are other and better choices. We'll see how well it works in the next 5 to 10 years.

My Velodyne's (They have been making subs for more than 20 years) won't do that since they are Servo controlled, the cone movement is measured thousands of times a second and any inconsistencies corrected. Loud, Deep and really, really low. No 60Hz Boom here!"

Just because a company has been building a product for years does not mean they make a state of the art product. Look at any of the big 3 automakers compared to the european and japanese cars. No contest.

[TheEAR]

You are overdriving it and bottoming the woofer out on the backplate! JL Audio is way overrated in the car audio world and they have been making home subwoofers how long now? A year. Gimme a break! That is a 13W7 car audio woofer adapted into a home cabinet with a JL Audio Plate amp regardless of the specs and what it can do. At $3K there are other and better choices. We'll see how well it works in the next 5 to 10 years.

My Velodyne's (They have been making subs for more than 20 years) won't do that since they are Servo controlled, the cone movement is measured thousands of times a second and any inconsistencies corrected. Loud, Deep and really, really low. No 60Hz Boom here!

FYI I have a Velodyne HGS18 and the JL Fathom series subs,the f113 is superior to a HGS18,and I paid even more for the HGS18(when it was THE sealed compact sub,yes compact). The HGS18 limiter is set better,this YES. And BTW I have yet to bottom any of my subs...maybe I am more aware when to stop...

JL Audio overrated...you are joking.Their $3300 retail price makes the velo DD18 $4999 look like a joke. And the JL Audio uses better parts from A to Z,the only departament where the Velo gets the nod is lower distortion and built in SMS-1.

The JL Audio subs are far more capable down deep,cubic inch for cubic inch. Also one f113 moves more ait than two of your Velo subs and comes close to three units! Some people simply have large rooms and listen loud,plus placement and sitting are less than ideal.

What Roc was doing is pushing the sub beyond its limit,and BTW I can ruin any sub by overdriving the unit with sine waves...and roast any driver VC. I have seen voice coils in Velo,Klipsch ...roasted. Anything can be overdriven.Even the stoutest pro sub can be tortured to where ovearheating will get the better.

[DrWho]

Big is a problem?!?

*sigh*

"Hoffman's Iron Law"

What is the "Iron Law"?

How about a slide from a lecture?

Basically, for a given motor strength the loudspeaker engineer has 3 main degrees of freedom:

-Size of the Cabinet

-Low frequency extension

-Efficiency of the system

Hoffman's Iron Law is a series of equations that describe the

relationships between each of the above design criteria. Ignoring the

math (unless you wanna get into it), "improving" any one of the design

criteria to satisfy the desires of the market requires that you make

sacrifices in other areas. For example, if you make the cabinet smaller

and want to keep the efficiency the same, then the low frequency

extension of the system moves higher. Or basically, you cannot make the

system play lower without either increasing the size of the cabinet or

reducing the efficiency. But if you don't mind a large cabinet, you can

have the same efficiency AND the low frequency extension. This is why

infinite baffle subs work so well.

Another important thing to keep in mind is that most all distortion is

a result of the movement of the driver. If you can reduce the amount of

movement for the same SPL, then the system is going to have less

distortion. Since SPL is tied to the amount of air displaced, the only

way to reduce the cone excursion is to increase the total driver

surface area. This is another reason why infinite baffles work so well.

When you've got a small 12" driver in a small little cabinet, you've

got all the variables working against you. Obviously, JL Audio has done

some sick stuff with their motor to achieve their performance, so don't

let me imply that you're hearing absolute crap. But it's still an

iron-fisted approach, and for the amount of money and engineering put

into that motor, I can't help but wonder what kind of performance they

could be achieved in a cabinet twice or even four times the size. Heck,

move to a 15" driver and now you need half the cone excursion for the

same displacement! Double the size of the cabinet with a single 15"

driver and you'd readily obtain 6dB more output all around. That can

also read that you'll have 6dB less distortion at the same output

levels. Of course, you could always purchase two units and achieve the

same, but it's gonna cost way less when you've got a single driver in a

single cabinet than multiple drivers in multiple cabinets.

I know I'm looking at the problem like an engineer and I'm well aware

that there is no JL Audio motor mounted to a larger driver in a larger

cabinet, and that you probably feel like you purchased the best product

that matches your criteria...and that may very well be the case (I

can't think of anything off the top of my head that isn't DIY). That

said, I think it helps to be aware of the huge hurdles the design is

trying to leap over when wondering why the system doesn't meet

expectations. In my eyes, you might as well purchase a wave runner

designed to travel up waterfalls when it would be way easier to take an

elevator built into the side of the mountain...