Mis-matching subwoofers

[Roc Rinaldi]

OK I have a new problem.

I recently replaced a Velodyne CT-120, 12", 130 wpc, rms, 25hz - 120hz, 60 lbs., subwoofer.

I replaced it with a JL Audio f-113, 131/2", 2,500 wpc, rms, 19hz - 200hz, 130 lbs., subwoofer.

My listening room is 23 x 22 x 7.3, wall to wall carpet, heavy fabric furniture and drapes.

Now I am very seriously considering the purchase of a second f-113 to increase the sub volume in the room and to non-localize the bass sound. I have been using my one f-113 at full volume, yet the low frequency decibel level in the room isn't quite enough for me.

I must not be much of an audiophile becase when I changed to the f-113 sub, I was not able to discern hardly any difference in sound level or sound quality between the f-113 and the CT-120. Isn't that amazing? It probably doesn't say much for my ears or my discriminating taste.

So, on a whim, I decided to hook up both subs even though they are mis-matches. Well, guess what? The sound level definitely went up. Doing an "A-B" comparison, I do now hear somewhat better quality of sound coming from the f-113 vs. the CT-120. Overall though, the sound of the two combined subs seems OK to me.

So, should I buy that second f-113 or stay with the two subs that I currently have? In seeking out advice on this issue, everyone advised me not to mix subs, but rather to get the same brand and model subs to work together. My gut says that I should get the second f-113. After investing quite a bit of money in my system, I may not want to cut any corners nor make any compromises on my subwoofers. It's just that hearing the two subs play together, they don't sound that bad, so I begin questioning whether or not I should invest a couple of thousand dollars more on a second f-113.

JL Audio is raising their subwoofer prices effective June 1, so I need advice right away so that I can decide before the price increase. Please help.

[Jay481985]

when you add a weaker subwoofer in your mix its like the saying. You are only as strong as your weakest link. You subwoofer with the weaker stats will work against the other subwoofer.

[TheEAR]

Get a second f113,and be happy ever after...make sure to ask for operator 911 and mention coupon number 122dB.They will ship hearings aids made by JL Audio when your hearing will be lesser. [:'(]

Listening at full blast!...HELLO ANYBODY HOME? ANYTHING INSIDE,HELLO I HEAR AN ECHO...ECHOO....ECHOOO

[DrWho]

Roc,

How loud is the bass in the corners of the room?

[Roc Rinaldi]

Get a second f113,and be happy ever after...make sure to ask for operator 911 and mention coupon number 122dB.They will ship hearings aids made by JL Audio when your hearing will be lesser. [:'(]

Listening at full blast!...HELLO ANYBODY HOME? ANYTHING INSIDE,HELLO I HEAR AN ECHO...ECHOO....ECHOOO

EAR, I thought you were right there with me listening as loud as I do.

I bought what I thought was a powerful sobwoofer, I mean subwoofer, in the f-113. All I've been doing is trying to experience all of that POWER. Now JL Audio says that even the subwoofer of the year has its limits. Well that disappoints me a little. However, I haven't given up faith in JL Audio so, most likely I will buy a second f-113 and hope for the best.

Listening at full blast!.........................could you repeat that?.....................what did you say?....................huh?...................what was that?.............excuse me?

[Roc Rinaldi]

Roc,

How loud is the bass in the corners of the room?

Too loud and boomy.

Mike here is what is odd. With just the f-113 playing, my primary listening position seemed to be a null spot. Hooking up the Velodyne AND the f-113 made the primary seat a boom spot. These subs are just to the inside of the two main speakers respectively.

[DrWho]

I am absolutely convinced that you've got some serious bass nodes going on. The annoying thing is that turning up the sub just increases the magnitude of the reflections, which in turn prevents any increase in output at the listening position. With your second lessor sub hooked up in a different position, it is going to have a different modal distribution than your F-113, which means it's probably filling in a few of the 113's gaps. The fact that you can't tell much of a quality difference between the two subs just further verifies that you're not hearing much of the direct sound of the F113 - rather, you're hearing the upper harmonics of distortion that aren't being masked by the modes of the room and your ear is filling in that it thinks it's hearing the lower notes when really it is not.

Try putting your F-113 where the Velodyne is currently located, turn off the Velodyne, and report back your results.

Also, can we get some dimensions of your room? The more accurate, the better.

I think we really need to get you a measurement rig and have you run a few sweeps to locate the problem frequencies and then install a few helmholtz resonators. I'll leave it up to you to make everything look cool.

I wouldn't doubt that a hundred dollars of acoustical treatment would yield more than double the performance of purchasing a second sub...that's quite a claim and a huge bargain if it turns out to be true... []

[sivadselim]

Have you f'n calibrated the single F113 properly yet? [:^)]

[TheEAR]

DrWHO,

Agreed ,Roc has not experienced the Fathom f113 fully.Fighting bass nodes with more sub is not an answer.One f113 is capable enough to make you feel sick from SPL when set up properly,even in a lerger room.

I have spots where subs like the f113 and the HGS18 perform poorly and other spots in the same room where even a minuscule Sunfire D-8 gives a big performance! It is all about placementof the sub and sitting position. Rocky Balboa here needs to work on the placement and experiment...

[zuzu]

I probably know less about subs than just about anyone here. I had a Velodyne DD 12 list $3000, that I could hardly hear with my RF 7's. I was told by Velodyne that I had an efficientcy mis match between base reflex RF 7"s and sub and to get a velodyne DLS 5000R base refex list $800. It works great and I sold the DD 12 and am $'s ahead. Located the new sub in same spot as the DD 12.

[colterphoto1]

Doc and others are correct. You need to analyze your room and correct deficiencies.

Probably moving the sub around is the easiest and least espensive solution.

I doubt if a second sub system of any calibre will accomplish what you want.

Tweak, tweak, tweak. You have sufficient equipment.

Michael

[colterphoto1]

Doc, The EAR and others are correct. You need to analyze your room and correct deficiencies.

Probably moving the sub around is the easiest and least espensive solution.

I doubt if a second sub system of any calibre will accomplish what you want.

Tweak, tweak, tweak. You have sufficient equipment.

Michael

[zuzu]

You probably know this but, Place the sub at your listening position and while playing appropriate low frequency music, crawl on your hands and knees around the room. In this position your head level is just about where it is when seated listening. Where it sounds best is the best sounding place to put the sub. Easier to move yourself around the room than to move the sub.

[Roc Rinaldi]

I am so appreciative of all of the input that I am getting here. I have to make up my mind about the second sub by tomorrow (Wednesday) in order to avoid the price increase.

I will spend tonight totally focused on the sub palcement. I will experiment and move the sub (heavy sucker) into various positions and see what happens. I will try to find a location where only the one sub is necessary. I am surprised that the general sentiment is that I don't need a second sub. My naiveté makes me think that a second sub would be an improvement, but maybe not. Posting more sooon.

[Roc Rinaldi]

I am absolutely convinced that you've got some serious bass nodes going on. The annoying thing is that turning up the sub just increases the magnitude of the reflections, which in turn prevents any increase in output at the listening position. With your second lessor sub hooked up in a different position, it is going to have a different modal distribution than your F-113, which means it's probably filling in a few of the 113's gaps. The fact that you can't tell much of a quality difference between the two subs just further verifies that you're not hearing much of the direct sound of the F113 - rather, you're hearing the upper harmonics of distortion that aren't being masked by the modes of the room and your ear is filling in that it thinks it's hearing the lower notes when really it is not.

Try putting your F-113 where the Velodyne is currently located, turn off the Velodyne, and report back your results.

Also, can we get some dimensions of your room? The more accurate, the better.

I think we really need to get you a measurement rig and have you run a few sweeps to locate the problem frequencies and then install a few helmholtz resonators. I'll leave it up to you to make everything look cool.

I wouldn't doubt that a hundred dollars of acoustical treatment would yield more than double the performance of purchasing a second sub...that's quite a claim and a huge bargain if it turns out to be true... []

Hi Dr. Who,

I will put the f-113 where the Velodyne is and see the result. My room dimensions are overall 23 x 22 x 7.3. The room is somewhat irregular. See http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/885654.aspx for pictures of the room. My impression is that the room tends to be dead for sound reflections but maybe I don't know what I am saying and maybe I am wrong about that.

How do you get me a "measurement rig?".

Your last statement

"I wouldn't doubt that a hundred dollars of acoustical treatment would yield more than double the performance of purchasing a second sub...that's quite a claim and a huge bargain if it turns out to be true... "

Mike, could what you say be true? Do you really beleive that some acoustical treatments would "more than double the performance of adding a second sub"?

[Roc Rinaldi]

DrWHO,

Agreed ,Roc has not experienced the Fathom f113 fully.Fighting bass nodes with more sub is not an answer.One f113 is capable enough to make you feel sick from SPL when set up properly,even in a lerger room.

I have spots where subs like the f113 and the HGS18 perform poorly and other spots in the same room where even a minuscule Sunfire D-8 gives a big performance! It is all about placementof the sub and sitting position. Rocky Balboa here needs to work on the placement and experiment...

I will work on the placement tonight and report back first thing tomorrow.

[jacksonbart]

Buying a new F-113 in your case is like going through cemotheropy to attempt to cure a cold. Its only going to hurt you, not help.

[Roc Rinaldi]

Buying a new F-113 in your case is like going through cemotheropy to attempt to cure a cold. Its only going to hurt you, not help.

Please elaborate.

How will it hurt me?

Couldn't it help me, like the Doublemint twins?

I'm really struggling with this decision.

[jacksonbart]

Buying a new F-113 in your case is like going through cemotheropy to attempt to cure a cold. Its only going to hurt you, not help.

Please elaborate.

How will it hurt me?

Couldn't it help me, like the Doublemint twins?

I'm really struggling with this decision.

Well another f-113 will get you approx 3 more decibals in output. Two might actually work against each other. How much do they cost? If you can solve your problem by moving the existing sub then buying a new one is simply throwing cash out the window. That typically hurts me.

[Roc Rinaldi]

Buying a new F-113 in your case is like going through cemotheropy to attempt to cure a cold. Its only going to hurt you, not help.

Please elaborate.

How will it hurt me?

Couldn't it help me, like the Doublemint twins?

I'm really struggling with this decision.

Well another f-113 will get you approx 3 more decibals in output. Two might actually work against each other. How much do they cost? If you can solve your problem by moving the existing sub then buying a new one is simply throwing cash out the window. That typically hurts me.

They cost a couple of grand each. Tonight I will try different locations for my one f-113 and see how the sound changes.

I definitely don't want to waste a couple of thousand of dollars if I don't have to. For me it is hard to tell what the correct answer is to my problem of wanting more bass in the sound.