Klipschorn as a two-way

[maxg]

Wasnt the original design of the Khorn a 2 way? I think this is going backwards rather than forwards.

Anyway - 500 Hz xover point is not a great place to start for a 2 way - asking rather a lot of the other driver IMHO - probably why the design went 3 way in the first place.

[NOSValves]

Wasnt the original design of the Khorn a 2 way? I think this is going backwards rather than forwards.

Anyway - 500 Hz xover point is not a great place to start for a 2 way - asking rather a lot of the other driver IMHO - probably why the design went 3 way in the first place.

Ahhhhhhhhh someone caught the mighty injustice........

[sfogg]

Wasnt the original design of the Khorn a 2 way? I think this is going backwards rather than forwards.

Anyway - 500 Hz xover point is not a great place to start for a 2 way - asking rather a lot of the other driver IMHO - probably why the design went 3 way in the first place.

Max,

Yes, the K'Horn started out as a two way then went three way. From what I have read PWK always wanted to go back to a two way... hence the Jubilee.

500hz crossover is fine for some drivers to handle two way with no problems in the home. Just need a better driver then the K55 to do it.

Shawn

[maxg]

Wasnt the original design of the Khorn a 2 way? I think this is going backwards rather than forwards.

Anyway - 500 Hz xover point is not a great place to start for a 2 way - asking rather a lot of the other driver IMHO - probably why the design went 3 way in the first place.

Max,

Yes, the K'Horn started out as a two way then went three way. From what I have read PWK always wanted to go back to a two way... hence the Jubilee.

500hz crossover is fine for some drivers to handle two way with no problems in the home. Just need a better driver then the K55 to do it.

Shawn

Genuine question:

Horn loaded driver that goes from 500 to say 17500 flat(ish) on axis? Not a beast I know of but I would be real interested in finding one for another project.....

[sfogg]

"Horn loaded driver that goes from 500 to say 17500 flat(ish) on axis?"

Altec 902, the TADs, 44xt, k69, B&Cs....etc...etc....

If you put them on a CDish horn then you will need to compensate for that.

This is the 44xt on a K510 for example:

My thread on the K510 has lots more measurements if you wanted to see them.

Shawn

[Deang]

If I could get better dispersion with better quality mid/highs, I would be interested if the price were reasonable. Too hard to get a good sweet spot in a lot of rooms using khorns.

You can get what you're asking for, but whether the price is "reasonable" or not will depend on your perspective. It's takes roughly $2000 to do it, which is pretty much right in there with other quality aftermarket mods.

[maxg]

Shawn,

Am I reading that wrong or does it start at 5000 Hz rather than 500?

edti - oops - I am reading it wrong - starts at zero

Sorry.

[theplummer]

I'm probably not knoweldgable enough about the how or what it is that makes me drool over the the Khorn, but I was wondering why there hasn't been an effort to update the mighty khorn with a tracktrix style horn for the mid and tweeter. Wouldn't the wider dispersion of the tracktrix alleviate some of the issues of widening the sweet spot, or potentially eliminate the toeing in of the speakers ruining the bass because of the poor seal to the back walls?

I've read some of the purported reasons in here why Klipsch never changed the mid horn and tweeter designs, but since I have no independent basis to confirm anything - I'll just chalk them up to speculation. Those of us who have modded our Klipschorns with Al K's Trachorn and different tweeter designs (e.g. baby cheeks) do not have any problems with the size of our sweet spot. And, I would never think of toeing in my Khorns. Not gonna do it. Not necessary.

That being said, I think there is probably more interest out there in the two-way idea for the Khorns than is reflected so far in this thread - and even from those of us with mods such as Trachorns.

I just think people are being shy.......[]

Carl.

My point Exactly. I didn't want to specifically suggest one product or another, but Klipsch might take a hint from General Motors. They have a habit, especially with the Duramax Diesel engine, of letting the aftermarket do their research and development on increasing the performance of their engines and transmissions. After the aftermarket has improved on their product, and proven reliability, GM implements similar enhancements in their newer models.

I've been reading for quite some time about the ALK Trackhorn upgrades to Khorn and Belle's as this is to be the "Cat's Meow". I would think Klipsch engineers would (at least secretly) take a serious look at what's being done in the aftermarket, and reverse engineer their own version of " Enhancement's" for their High end products. IMHO, I believe this would spur new sales to already loyal owners. Klipsch has "Brand Loyalty" in the bag. I believe that's what the company has been living on for decades now. Maybe it's time to step up and give the loyal customers a reason to plunk down more money and buy the "Cadillac" version of thier products, Or at least market them as such. This would in turn spur new growth.

I believe there is a two fold reason that the current dealers of these products don't have the Heritage line in their stores, available to be viewed.

1. There's nothing new to say about the products. (although their getting the picture with the Cornwall III and LS II). The Khorn is virtually unchanged since inception, and although I realize every model makes changes, No one knows about them due to poor marketing. Case in point, look at the Klipsch website on the Khorn. A three paragraph detailed description? What's this? And if you look at the specs, Their actually lacluster in performance compared to many other products, for example my ancient Chorus's. The Khorn tweeter is only rated to a maximum of 17KHZ. Every novice out there knows that a speaker should produce sound up to the 20Khz range, Right?(sarcazim). By looking at the specs, Which i believe a lot of people do, (what else do they have to make a comparison to since the product is not available to be heard) dictates wether or not to take them seriously.

2. I believe that the high end botiuques have learned not to put the Klipsch products on the floor.

I could never figure out why every Klipsch dealer I ever shopped at always tried to steer me away from the Klipsch product and direct me to the B&W or similar products. I now know why, They would rather sell a product costing nearly twice the amount of the Khorn to make a larger percentage of profit. If the Khorn isn't on the floor and a unknowing customer enters their store, its an easier upsell to the B&W's if the Khorn is not there. The customer has to take the salesman's word that the product on the floor is superior to the Khorn. Therefore, Klipsch just lost a potential new "Brand Loyal" customer.

I firmly believe that Klipsch should REQUIRE dealers that claim to sell Heratige, must have it in their showroom. If not Klipsch may as well put them for sale in their On Line store, at least the brand loyal customers could get their hands on them.

Sorry for the Off topic Rant, but this really gives me a case of the RED A$$.

[sfogg]

Max,

The 5000 number refers to where the marker is on the chart. The marker is a little white rectangle which is hard to see in that picture. Right above that is the number where the chart starts at, like you said it starts at 0hz. Top end is on the opposite side of the screen and is at 20,000 in that one.

It is a linear scale so each vertical marker is 2k apart.

This one is has the scale from 0 to 1k. Marker at 500hz.

Shawn

[seti]

I'm probably not knoweldgable enough about the how or what it is that makes me drool over the the Khorn, but I was wondering why there hasn't been an effort to update the mighty khorn with a tracktrix style horn for the mid and tweeter. Wouldn't the wider dispersion of the tracktrix alleviate some of the issues of widening the sweet spot, or potentially eliminate the toeing in of the speakers ruining the bass because of the poor seal to the back walls?

Mark Kaufman who is responsible for the revamped Heritage line said they did not feel comfortable moving that far away from the original Klipschorn design as it is know. I have heard Roy mention that PWK left instructions regarding the KHorns future. I could be wrong but I swear I read that on a post. PWKs ultimate answer was the Klipschorn Jubilee. The revamped cornwall and heresey have a tractrix tweeter though. I have been kicking the two way design around lately for my Belles. The Belle bas bin if I remember right goes up to 500hz and would be easier to use with the k510.

[theplummer]

I'm probably not knoweldgable enough about the how or what it is that makes me drool over the the Khorn, but I was wondering why there hasn't been an effort to update the mighty khorn with a tracktrix style horn for the mid and tweeter. Wouldn't the wider dispersion of the tracktrix alleviate some of the issues of widening the sweet spot, or potentially eliminate the toeing in of the speakers ruining the bass because of the poor seal to the back walls?

Mark Kaufman who is responsible for the revamped Heritage line said they did not feel comfortable moving that far away from the original Klipschorn design as it is know. I have heard Roy mention that PWK left instructions regarding the KHorns future. I could be wrong but I swear I read that on a post. PWKs ultimate answer was the Klipschorn Jubilee. The revamped cornwall and heresey have a tractrix tweeter though. I have been kicking the two way design around lately for my Belles. The Belle bas bin if I remember right goes up to 500hz and would be easier to use with the k510.

I understand PWK still has a hand in the decisions, but there's an easy fix there also. Since the Bass Bin separates from both the Khorn and Belle, why not offer the Traditional sqwaker and call it "Classic", and create a new top section and give it a new moniker E.G. "Klipschorn SS". This would give customers additional choices.

[seti]

I'm probably not knoweldgable enough about the how or what it is that makes me drool over the the Khorn, but I was wondering why there hasn't been an effort to update the mighty khorn with a tracktrix style horn for the mid and tweeter. Wouldn't the wider dispersion of the tracktrix alleviate some of the issues of widening the sweet spot, or potentially eliminate the toeing in of the speakers ruining the bass because of the poor seal to the back walls?

Mark Kaufman who is responsible for the revamped Heritage line said they did not feel comfortable moving that far away from the original Klipschorn design as it is know. I have heard Roy mention that PWK left instructions regarding the KHorns future. I could be wrong but I swear I read that on a post. PWKs ultimate answer was the Klipschorn Jubilee. The revamped cornwall and heresey have a tractrix tweeter though. I have been kicking the two way design around lately for my Belles. The Belle bas bin if I remember right goes up to 500hz and would be easier to use with the k510.

I understand PWK still has a hand in the decisions, but there's an easy fix there also. Since the Bass Bin separates from both the Khorn and Belle, why not offer the Traditional sqwaker and call it "Classic", and create a new top section and give it a new moniker E.G. "Klipschorn SS". This would give customers additional choices.

If PWK was still with us the Jubilee would be available but he passed away in 2002. I think we are lucky the heritage line is still available and they won't offer a split heritage line as they are trying to keep as close to original as possible.

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_paul_klipsch/

[theplummer]

I'm probably not knoweldgable enough about the how or what it is that makes me drool over the the Khorn, but I was wondering why there hasn't been an effort to update the mighty khorn with a tracktrix style horn for the mid and tweeter. Wouldn't the wider dispersion of the tracktrix alleviate some of the issues of widening the sweet spot, or potentially eliminate the toeing in of the speakers ruining the bass because of the poor seal to the back walls?

Mark Kaufman who is responsible for the revamped Heritage line said they did not feel comfortable moving that far away from the original Klipschorn design as it is know. I have heard Roy mention that PWK left instructions regarding the KHorns future. I could be wrong but I swear I read that on a post. PWKs ultimate answer was the Klipschorn Jubilee. The revamped cornwall and heresey have a tractrix tweeter though. I have been kicking the two way design around lately for my Belles. The Belle bas bin if I remember right goes up to 500hz and would be easier to use with the k510.

I understand PWK still has a hand in the decisions, but there's an easy fix there also. Since the Bass Bin separates from both the Khorn and Belle, why not offer the Traditional sqwaker and call it "Classic", and create a new top section and give it a new moniker E.G. "Klipschorn SS". This would give customers additional choices.

If PWK was still with us the Jubilee would be available but he passed away in 2002. I think we are lucky the heritage line is still available and they won't offer a split heritage line as they are trying to keep as close to original as possible.

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_paul_klipsch/

Seti, I'm sorry, I guess I should have clarified my statement. I know PWK has since passed, but I also realize that he made it known how he wanted his legacy (company) to continue. I feel that Fred has honored Paul's wishes and hope this continues, but, evolution must continue even in this (dead end) offshoot of their lineup. I would prefer to see new life injected into the Heritage line, as the current home design has gone "Retro". Its time for Klipsch to dive into that phenomonon.

[Deang]

Not so much about Khorns, but after 20+ years with 2 ways, when I went to the 3 way Heresy, it took awhile to learn to like the sound of a 3 way. Last week-end I hooked up my KG4's to the Scott, sounded good for awhile, but slowly found myself missing the sound of the 3 way. Funny what time does to one's taste.........I missed the 3 way Heresy's..........probably would apply to Khorns too, but the thought of a 2 way Khorn is interesting, that could be a tough choice............

Buckster, if you look at the chart at the link below, you'll see that by 2kHz it's pretty much over. In most two-ways, the cone(s) is/are handling the fundamentals and the tweeter is primarily dealing with the harmonic information. Most two-ways with 8 or 10 inch woofers have crossover points that hover around this 2kHz area. When comparing your Heresys to your KG4's, the thing that most accounts for the difference in sound is the horn loaded midrange of the Heresys (as opposed to the 'cone midrange' of the KG4's) -- not that one is a two-way and the other is a three-way. If we replaced the driver/horn in your KG-4's with one that goes 1500 cycles lower and plays out to 17kHz -- how do you think that might sound compared to your Heresys?

http://www.psbspeakers.com/audioTopics.php?fpId=8&page_num=2&start=8

[Audio Flynn]

2. I believe that the high end botiuques have learned not to put the Klipsch products on the floor.

I
could never figure out why every Klipsch dealer I ever shopped at
always tried to steer me away from the Klipsch product and direct me to
the B&W or similar products. I now know why, They would rather sell
a product costing nearly twice the amount of the Khorn to make a larger
percentage of profit. If the Khorn isn't on the floor and a unknowing
customer enters their store, its an easier upsell to the B&W's if
the Khorn is not there. The customer has to take the salesman's word
that the product on the floor is superior to the Khorn. Therefore,
Klipsch just lost a potential new "Brand Loyal" customer.

I
firmly believe that Klipsch should REQUIRE dealers that claim to sell
Heratige, must have it in their showroom. If not Klipsch may as well
put them for sale in their On Line store, at least the brand loyal
customers could get their hands on them.

=================================================

Dealers I have seen have 20 year old Heritage with poor performing old networks. B&W 800 series was being displayed as the "sexiest beast " in the store.

Regional Sales Managers at Klipsch must not have a plan to police dealers anymore than Ford, DCX and GM police their dealers.

[Deang]

BTW Dean... I am heading to Piqua next Wednesday on my first leg towards Indianapolis. Not sure of timing yet but thought I'd offer to buy you lunch (or appropriate meal for time of day I swing through town) if you have the interest & opportunity.

Bad. I will be knee deep at work getting everything squared away so I can take off Friday. Sorry!

[Deang]

... I think the K horn bottom goes lower than the jub... just a thought?

Roger, techanically, yes -- but it's miniscule. In reality, placement and room will dictate which actually goes lower -- it won't be the same for everyone. Now, that very small difference in the very lowest part of their responses is not what people should be comparing. The lift in response between 50 and 300 is signifcant, and it ain't something you just barely notice.

[Deang]

Wasnt the original design of the Khorn a 2 way? I think this is going backwards rather than forwards.

It's a step backwards if you presume all three or more ways always sounds subjectively better than two-ways, and I don't think you believe that. It's also a step backwards if it doesn't measure better and sound better.

[seti]

I'm probably not knoweldgable enough about the how or what it is that makes me drool over the the Khorn, but I was wondering why there hasn't been an effort to update the mighty khorn with a tracktrix style horn for the mid and tweeter. Wouldn't the wider dispersion of the tracktrix alleviate some of the issues of widening the sweet spot, or potentially eliminate the toeing in of the speakers ruining the bass because of the poor seal to the back walls?

Mark Kaufman who is responsible for the revamped Heritage line said they did not feel comfortable moving that far away from the original Klipschorn design as it is know. I have heard Roy mention that PWK left instructions regarding the KHorns future. I could be wrong but I swear I read that on a post. PWKs ultimate answer was the Klipschorn Jubilee. The revamped cornwall and heresey have a tractrix tweeter though. I have been kicking the two way design around lately for my Belles. The Belle bas bin if I remember right goes up to 500hz and would be easier to use with the k510.

I understand PWK still has a hand in the decisions, but there's an easy fix there also. Since the Bass Bin separates from both the Khorn and Belle, why not offer the Traditional sqwaker and call it "Classic", and create a new top section and give it a new moniker E.G. "Klipschorn SS". This would give customers additional choices.

If PWK was still with us the Jubilee would be available but he passed away in 2002. I think we are lucky the heritage line is still available and they won't offer a split heritage line as they are trying to keep as close to original as possible.

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_paul_klipsch/

Seti, I'm sorry, I guess I should have clarified my statement. I know PWK has since passed, but I also realize that he made it known how he wanted his legacy (company) to continue. I feel that Fred has honored Paul's wishes and hope this continues, but, evolution must continue even in this (dead end) offshoot of their lineup. I would prefer to see new life injected into the Heritage line, as the current home design has gone "Retro". Its time for Klipsch to dive into that phenomonon.

Sorry I misunderstood. I see your point of view and it is an interesting idea. The more attention to the Heritage line the better. I think the new KHorn looks as good as it ever has just stunning. The revamping of the heritage line was just completed not long ago and they re-introduced the Cornwall. What else would like to see them do? I have thought a reeducation of the sellers and public would be a good idea. It would be cool to be able to sign up for the Dope From Hope again : )

[maxg]

Shawn,

Thanks - the 5000 Hz fooled me at first sight then when I posted I saw the zero above it - oh and yes that does look flat enough - most interesting.

Dean,

I wasnt refering to a step backwards performance wise but time wise - it was in response to your 21st century line which just happened to look very much like the 1950's - hence stepping backwards in time if not in performance.

Just to stress - I have nothing against a good 2 way at all - I was mightly impressed with the RF7 on one occasion but that, in common with most 2 ways I know of, crosses over nearer 2K than 500 Hz. It just seems to me that anything at 500 Hz X-over is screaming to be placed in a 3 or more way although it may be fully possible to achieve a 2 way design.

Out of interest - what benefit would you expect to garner from a 2 way implementation other than the loss of a single X-over point? Do you see any potential drawbacks?

My limited experience with 2 ways is that they can often come across as being a bit lean in the midrange - which is probably the most important part of the spectrum to me at least. I recall it being a regular accusation aimed at the RF7 for example.

As a final bit of lunacy - I have been looking at Tannoy's dual concentric design. I wonder if there is a version that might suit hornloading - perhaps in a folded horn which might just address some of the timing and phase issues inherrent in the design (on a passive X-over at least). Tis but a passing fancy - probably not workable - I havent sat down to investigate it or anything.

If anyone wants to save me the effort - just tell me why it is idiotic.