How many of us listen to VINYL as primary source?

[Curmudgeon]

In regard to the last few posts: Sorry, but I have to agree with Mobile here that vinyl in decent condition played back on good deck/arm/cartridge combos has a slightly more appealing sound. If you're sitting and listening to music critically the difference is usually obvious but if you're working or otherwise distracted it can be hard to notice. For a goofy analogy consider this: the movie "Airplane" is pretty funny just listening to the dialog but if you're REALLY paying attention to what's happening on the screen there's so many sight gags going on its hard to pick up on all of them without multiple viewings of the movie. Music can be like this on multiple listenings, as I've improved my equipment over the years I'll pick up on nuances or background noises in the recording that didn't stand out as well when played previously, but your source material has to have it there to begin with.

Another way to think about it is that music is an analog waveform which an LP duplicates mostly true to form (other than RIAA EQ) but a CD is a digitized version of that waveform. Depending on how many pieces the wave has been sliced into yields the APPROXIMATED analog wave which a CD is giving you. If you think of a connect-the-dots picture or dot-matrix type images compared to their originals you can get an idea of what I'm driving at: CD's get CLOSE but still don't reproduce a true analog waveform entirely in its frequency and amplitude. Both DVD-A and SACD should do better at this but I can't give an opinion on that since I don't own one yet (I'm waiting for a format winner). If you talk to musicians or recording engineers they'll almost always tell you that CD's are limiting them in how they record material but one must go with the format that's popular or they won't make any money.

Don't misconstrue what I'm rambling about here: CD's do have their advantages as far as convenience and dynamic range, plus they work much better in a car than a LP so I'm not about to give up my CD's. Vinyl can be a pain to deal with and its not for everyone but there's just too many people (including musicians) that prefer its type of sound to relegate LP's to the boneyard anytime soon. LP's are still in production due to DEMAND, otherwise the money-grubbing music industry would just give you CD's or whatever they can make the most profit off of. I won't be selling my LP's until a format can equal or better it in ALL ways, not just convenience.

Disclaimer: This has been an opinion, and we all know what they're like. No suicides or drinking binges are required to deal with an alternate viewpoint, but inflamed responses from the personally offended can be quite entertaining to read (hence this forum).

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year!

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Linn Sondek LP12 w/Basik Plus arm

Mobile Fidelity UltrAmp (Michael Yee PA-1) amp

Rotel RC-1070 preamp

Rega Planet CD player

B&W CDM9NT speakers

This message has been edited by Audioholic on 12-24-2001 at 10:12 AM

[Charles Turner]

As a follow up to those who watch for cheap used vinyl...November thru early February are good times to check out your local Goodwill and Salvation Army stores ...people donate stuff at the end of the year for tax benes and it takes these stories through late January to get all the vinyl out on the shelves.

[mobile homeless]

Good tip, Charles.

kh

[Stu Pidass]

Despite owing an extensive collection of vinyl (many audiophile series), I listen exclusivley to CD's. I must admit to necer owing a "Good" Cartridge etc. so maybe that's why I saw CD's as a giant step, no leap, forward.

[TBrennan]

Mobile---Man, it just gets your goat when I don't agree with you, eh? Who made you the Great Audio Guru? You seem to think that your opinions are established fact, they aren't. It's like you've come to the "forum that time forgot" to set us all straight. I don't see you qualify your views with "I think" or "IMO" no, it's "this is good" and "this is bad". Your attitude can be patronising and dogmatic. Now if the ease of use of CDs makes listening more enjoyable for me do you think you can argue me into thinking it's actually less enjoyable? That's ridiculous. If I wanted to listen to records I would, that's it. Here you've been fussbudgeting for years with wires and manual record players and SETs yet you were listening with what I consider to be lousy loudspeakers, I think you were just spinning your wheels, what you were doing wasn't good to my taste, but if it suited yours that's that. So your credibility with me is strained though I must admit you finally had the discernment to get some decent speakers. By the way, I play music and I know many musicians, only one I know bothers with records, he has about 10,000 lps, he started collecting them hoping the value will go up, he listens to them once in awhile too. Guy has perfect pitch and a fine ear for music but records his music on CDs and listens to his Cornwalls with a SS Urei amp, maybe you think he doesn't know what he's doing? Now really man, how you gonna' argue taste? Let it go, we just don't agree.

[Allan Songer]

My father, who is in his 70's and who introduced me to Horns the day he brought me home from the hospital nearly 46 years ago (the system I grew up with was a Fisher mono tube amp, a Garrard table and ONE Klipshorn) was over to my house for dinner last night and we pulled out some of HIS old records: "Mulligan meets Monk" and the Mel Torme "Porgy and Bess." I happen to have the Mulligan/Monk on CD as well so we did a comparison. I have a $4500 BAT CD player and my analog rig set me back about $400 (but is probably worth 3 times that now!) and my Dad was blown away that his 40+ years old record sounded so much better than the CD! His comment was that the CD had too much "sizzle."

Sadly, my dad gave away the mono stuff in the late 60's and replaced it with solid state stuff and AR speakers. Today he has a B&O tabletop system and no turntable at all (that's shy I have his records). I'd love to build a mono system some day like the one I grew up with . . .

[mobile homeless]

You're right, Tom. I dont even know why I bother. Count it as a lesson learned. Enough said.

Randy, why didnt you warn me sooner?

Allen, great story regarding your Dad and, ironically enough, I had much the same from this end inheriting many many vintage jazz albums from my Dad who was a jazz drummer outside of New York in his younger years. He also had about 400 78s that were just amazing but I dont currently have anything to listen to them on. I almost got one of those Regas dedicated to 78rpm.

I count myself so lucky to have this kind of collection of 50s and 60s stuff that I really get into now. Many of these records are original pressings! I am lucky indeed.

From the sound of it, so are you. Wish I could still talk to my Dad about this stuff. He never got to hear the big tube resurgence.

kh

[Audio Flynn]

I am just waiting for al the kids to go to sleep...

Ma and Dad bought a top of the line console Motorola Stereo HIFI in 1959; 42 years ago this month...their Christmas present the year before i was born in 8-60.

Mono woofer and 2 ways on the outboard thirds of the cabinet. Really impressive presence for Johnny Cash , Roger Miller, Herb Albert, Nat King Cole and others growing up. The brothers that baby sat me next door snuck over Jimmee, Yes, Who, Moody Blues, Byrds nd others in the late 60s and early 70s. Bing singing Christmas tunes tooo!

I like my rig now but I do not know if it is age or nastalgia my Cds sound a bit fake compared to the vinyl I grew up with(have not had a vinyl rig in 9 years due to kids and stuff).

Fantasies about a smoking analog front end will have wait until better economic times.

My best to Ray(?) and others harmed by the current economics.

Peace

Merry Christmas

[soundog]

I have a lot of old LPs but I love the convenience and flexibility of CDs. My solution has been to use MSB jitter reduction and Perpetual Technologies processing devices to bring the CD sound played through SONY changers controlled by a computer interface to a level that surpasses LPs (NO surface noise and instant access and ultimate programmability w/o leaving my chair)! SACDs will also surpass the LP sound, I believe.

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Soundog's HT Systems

[Colin]

Vinyl in decent condition played back on good deck/arm/cartridge combos does have a slightly more appealing sound. If you do sit and listen to music critically the difference is obvious but it can be hard to notice.

Notice the caveats written above: "decent condition, good deck and arm and cartridge, slightly appealing." With this many qualifications, going vinyl is as exciting as a legal contract. Of course, such is the way it is with most things audio. There are always qualifications and gotchas. IMO

What percentage of the marketplace do records have? Is there any major chain that sells them? Do records outsell classical music? Are they even 3% of the marketplace? In fact, the supply of good classical music, with its dynamic contrasts, is a very good reason to explore the market of $.25 old black discs. IMO

One of the biggest complaints about CDs should be their limited dynamic range. Anything less than the actual live range is unacceptable. Orchestras can have 130 dB peaks. Any medium with less than that is unacceptable. The twenty year reign of the CD is only a temporary solution. IMO

Many of the tweaks and twiddles I read about do seem to be anemic fixes for inherent problems that radiator cones exhibit. Which is one reason that I read tube amp reviews with a sideways glance at the speakers used - if they are typical cones, I discount many of the negative remarks like a sale at Kmart. IMO

Why isn't there a huge rush to release music with wide dynamic range on DVD-A? Why aren't there reviews saying "oh, my god, this is so much better!" The best I have heard about SACD is that it is as good as records. What I want are full-range four/six/nine channel recordings of the artist live in a studio about twice the size of my living room with the band in there with her/him and me sitting in front or near the center. (and 100 2A3 watts per driver!) IMO

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Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing!

[Curmudgeon]

Colin, nothing personal but if you're going to quote someone use his or her original words in context. The words you left out of my second sentence vastly changes its meaning:

Original - "If you're sitting and listening to music critically the difference is usually obvious but if you're working or otherwise distracted it can be hard to notice."

Misquoted - "If you do sit and listen to music critically the difference is obvious but it can be hard to notice."

My griping is now concluded, its time for more of my demented opinions (groan):

Colins suggestion of buying older used classical LPs is a great idea, except in reality you shouldnt expect but so much dynamic range (although you can find some great titles that were never released in CD format). A CD actually has much more dynamic range available than the average LP. Even the best half-speed mastered 180 gram LP just does get near a CD's 90db dynamic range (average LP's run 50-70 at best). I love my LPs but do recognize their limitations; I just appreciate them for the type of sound they have compared to CDs. Colins comment about orchestras hitting 130db peaks is true and ANY compression changes the sound negatively, so both formats are incapable of 100% accurate reproduction.

If numbers were everything a CD would have sonic superiority but the problem there is that music is about more than dynamic range, signal-to-noise ratios, distortion, etc., etc. Rhythm, timing, timbre, and the natural decaying of notes are the main elements that determine whether the music sounds as it was recorded rather than like a tin can on a string. These elements are greatly affected by room size, shape, furnishings, source and amplification equipment, speakers, and rarely can be made to sound exactly like an original recording (especially live concerts). When all the variables are considered and combined its my opinion that LPs extract more of the right things needed from the analog wave than a CD can. I may be nuts but at least Ive got plenty of company in the asylum.

The new formats may be a step forward but its starting to look like VHS vs Beta all over again. SACD supposedly has a 120db dynamic range while DVD-A can do around 140db but that doesnt mean the best format will win. DVD-As 140db range doesnt mean that it is automatically the best format either, but its a good start. The shame of it is that the winner wont be determined by consumers in a market economy but by big-money corporations using unscrupulous methods to try to bring an early demise to the competing format. Essentially, the corporation with the best lawyers will prevail, lets just hope some of the lawyers are music fans. Maybe some of them actually own turntables.

[soundog]

Sony is getting real unscrupulous - lowering their prices on their SACD players and developing hybrid SACDs that cover a variety of needs while lowering prices and increasing distribution. What will they stoop to next? By the way I think the dynamic range on some of the SACDs I've purchased is excellent.

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Soundog's HT Systems

[Colin]

Sorry for the misquote, audioholic one. I meant to disagree by saying that 12" black vinyl discs in decent condition with a good turntable and arm and cartridge and vibration isolation platform with good interconnects and a remote control does have a very appealing sound. Otherwise they are only slightly appealing. Only if you are listening critically is the difference noticable.

I am certainly sorry for the error on the dynamic range. I know that there are measurable benefits to 12" black discs and I seem to remember that dynamic range was one of them. Perhaps not. Perhaps it was the high end frequency range that was higher than previously thought. I know CDs are limited however, when compared to the real thing, so I do think we have miles to go before we rest.

You are certainly right about the tone. It is all about the tone. Until we start to measure how close a saxophone, for example, comes close to the real thing, we are running fast on the wrong course.

But like VHS, with more titles and lower price than slightly more appealing Beta, the benefits of a new audio/visual format must be more than slightly noticeable for it to attract attention from the hard charging consumer herd.

[Curmudgeon]

Colin - No big deal, I was just being anal retentive about the phrasing. I'm new to this forum but I've read quite a few of your posts and they're all good.

The 12" black records are supposed to be better but I don't really know why, it could be better grade vinyl, better quality masters, or perhaps shorter pressing runs. My classical LP collection is not that extensive and I rely on a friend that plays cello to pick out the better recordings. He studied music in college and really knows the right ones to get, as far as orchestras, labels, conductors, etc.

I agree that the recording media is still very lacking but those who demand reference quality music are outnumbered by the cattle who are happy with mediochre sound. It seems we aggravating audiophile types are willing to spend plenty of money but have the gall to want good quality recordings in return, and there's much more money to be made from the gum-chewers buying mass quantities of hip-hop and boy-band schlock.

[jdm56]

Interesting discussion. Personally, my listening is probably 95% CD, 4% DAT (compilations made from my own CD's), and 1% vinyl and cassette. And virtually all my listening is "critical" -- good music draws me in.

Also of interest, the argument that because musicians prefer vinyl, it must be better. First of all, I am sure I could find a few authentic, real life musicians who would prefer CD. And what makes a musicians opinion so weighty? How many real musicians even have, or care about having, a decent hi-fi rig? Most I've known or read about have the crappiest pieces of junk you could imagine.

Personal disclaimer: I have never owned a high quality record playing set-up. The best I ever had was probably a Luxman/Stanton set-up from the late eighties. But still, we're talking Japanese plastic here. So I will allow that, especially considering record playback's vulnerability to any and all vibration and resonance, that a high-dollar, heavy artillery system would certainly outperform anything I ever owned. BUT...

...Even the best vinyl playback systems are still suject to the old snap, crackle and pop; man, I got sick of that. That, and inner groove distortion, plus all the other various distortions and noises that were clearly audible to me. And yes, I cleaned my records and stylus, and was fastidious about set-up.

When I went CD, I went whole-hog. And have not looked back since. Shoot, I even saw the film "High Fidelity" (good movie) and had not a trace of nostalgia for the old days of vinyl (good riddance).

I really find it hard to understand how anyone could prefer vinyl, but to each his own.

Merry Christmas one and all!

From the horn-tootin', solid state, digital lad...

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JDMcCall

[Manuel Delaflor]

Interesting discussion.

In audio subjectivity plays an important role. Some will be arguing forever about the advantages or disadvantages of their preferred and most hated systems, but no one will have "the truth". There is no way to reproduce the sound of a live music session accurately. We simply don't have the technology.

Think in this as an example, there are several manufacturers of really high end equipment (extremely expensive, by the way), all claiming to being able to reproduce accurately the sound...

Yet, every brand SOUNDS DIFFERENT...

Just to not let this only as a critical post, what I think is needed to reproduce sound more accurately than we can now is standarized studios and rooms for listening, same equipment on recording and reproducing, a dedicated speaker for every kind of instrument, and lot of other factors. Well, at least, that's what I think.

This message has been edited by Manuel on 12-26-2001 at 12:29 PM

[Soeren Basboell]

I am still using 100 % vinyl as I until now have not heard cd in an acceptable way. Using Goldmund studio with some highend Ortofon PU's.

Besides you can make an arm which outperform any other in an afternoon, for 10 $ material plus an aquarian pump. There is no reason to pay money for arms.

Søren

[Allan Songer]

What on earth is an "aquarian pump." Some sort of metaphysical/astrological device?

[mobile homeless]

Heh.... indeed.

Actually, what he is talking about is an Aquarium Pump which is used to make something very much like the Eminent Technology ET2 which rides along on a cushion of air instead of pivoting like a normal tonearm. The pump is housed in another room to keep from hearing the pump noise and the air is pumped through sufficient tubing to keep the arm floating on the guide offering almost no resistance, thereby theoretically beating out the friction and drag of a typical bearing arm.

There are a number of attempts at duplicating these linear tracking, air bearing arms. They also supposedly ride in the center of the grove much better as a pivot tonearm is only "really" correctly aligned at one point of its arc. One thing that is neat is you can change the arm tube and cartridge in one fell swoop. Unfortunately, these arms ARE persnickity, however, and can be problematic.

People still attempt to make these beasts and a number of the DIY brigade love them. The ET2 tonearm was very popular and is probably the most widely known commercial example but needs a VERY stable TT platform that is rock solid such as the VPI models or the home brew Teres(among others). Something like a softly sprung Linn would be out of the question.

kh

Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point

CD Player Rega Planet

Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect

Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover

system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s>

This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 01-11-2002 at 12:27 AM

[Soeren Basboell]

In this board full of woffers, Lascallas and with a sampling frequency of 96 mhz (sic) I am very proud of being the first to get comments on my spelling.

Jokes aside, there are some points on arms I should like to comment. In my mind the the most overlooked basic problems are

1) to get the right resonance frequencies in both the vertical and horizontal plane

2) to avoid return waves from mechanical mirrors

Ad 1): These frequencies should be as low as possible without going into resonance when exposed to the records we meet in real life. This means that due to moulding errors which are typically around 6 Hz almost only vertical, the vertical resonance should be just under the lowest frequency we want to reproduce, but safely over 6 Hz. 15-20 Hz is a good compromise but is very difficult to obtain with radial arms, it is nearly always much too low as radial arms must have a certain length for geometrical reasons.

In the horizontal plane the problem is not warped records but eccentric ones which has a frequency of half a Hz, which makes a resonance frequency of 2 to 3 Hz the best choice. This means for typical MC pick-ups a few hundred grams of lead on the sledge on an air cushion arm but is difficult to realise on a radial arm although not impossible. This is the secret behind a good bass from vinyl.

Ad 2): When the diamond is working in the groove the PU and the arm are exposed to both transversal and longitudinal forces which creates waves running down the arm tube. If the arm ends in a classical bearing, knife or ball, then this bearing can reflect the wave and send it back through the arm to the PU and give a weak but nasty pulse maybe a ms later. It is something like a ball returned from a wall. In a well designed aircushion arm with lead it gives such to say a completely unelastic shock and thus the amplitude is reduced to nearly zero. This is audible.

To my knowledge no commercial arm has integrated these parts of the physics in their construction, so if you want the maximum of quality you have to DIY. It is not a question of money.

Regards,

Søren