mjennings99 Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 I have a Musical Fidelity Amp CR3- 135 w/ channel and I Bi-wired my RF3's. My question is do I have to worry about too much power to the HF side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylanl Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 If you do a search on the site you will find way more information than you probably would ever want on this subject. I am not sure if using the bi-wire option really bypasses the crossover in the RF3. If I am wrong others will correct me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Short answer, no you don't have to worry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjennings99 Posted August 6, 2007 Author Share Posted August 6, 2007 what site Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 I think he meant "this" site, meaning the Klipsch forums. A search for "bi-wire" will yield all sorts of results. I believe the product manuals discuss bi-wiring too. A slightly longer answer...regardless of whether or not you biwire, the voltage at the input to the passive crossover for the tweeter is going to be the same because the bi-wire configuration shares the same node. Of course, if you believe this, then you should quickly realize that bi-wiring doesn't achieve anything either, but let's not go there [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjennings99 Posted August 6, 2007 Author Share Posted August 6, 2007 thanks, i will read up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylanl Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Thanks DR WHO that is what I was saying but I also did not want to go down that road. Better he read and decide for himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 Someone is wrong about bi-wiring (among other things). I think he's studying electrical engineering and think his profs know everything (hint: they don't). Bi-wiring can give an audible reduction in intermodulation distortion. It is most noticable in speakers with low impedance woofers and high impedance mids and highs (as most of the Klipsch Heritage series were). Good basic reading at: http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/biwiring.htm Bi-wiring also allows for different types of wire for HF and LF response. Big fat zip cord (think original Monster cable) has high inductance. There is an article in BoxOffice Magazine by John Allen about a large cinema installation using Klipsch speakers that negated a measured a 5dB loss in VHF by using lower inductance wiring. The first time I heard the difference in distortion in a bi-wire vs regular wire system was about 30 years ago. It was in a big club with a horn loaded JBL pro system and McIntosh amplifiers. A conductor in the under-the-floor multicore speaker wire went open and they had to drop back to a regular wiring scheme for one channel. The increase in intemodulation distortion on that side was so bad that the bar owner called me in to fix the 'blown' JBL drivers! An extra pair of wire had to be taped at the edge of the dance floor until the lighted plexiglass dance floor could be pulled up for maintenance. More recently a friend bi-wired his Belle (that came from Klipsch with bi-wire terminals). The tonality of the Belle changed so much with bi-wiring that he did not like the sound, and changed back to the regular wiring scheme (the mids and highs seemed too prominent). He is contemplating changing to the Crites autoformer to allow for more precise level adjustments. Is it a huge change? Can everbody hear it? No, and no. Surplus teflon wire is available for about $0.13 a foot. If you only need about ten foot to each speaker it will only cost you about $5.20 to try it. You can put a loose twist in the pair with an electric drill. 20ga is fine for most runs for HF, 18ga for longer. Pick two different colors of wire to make it easier to hook up. Avoid using banana plugs at the back of the speakers. If you don't mind paying for ready-made wire, the lowest price Kimber cable is nice, as is the lowest priced AudioQuest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 "Bi-wiring also allows for different types of wire for HF and LF response. Big fat zip cord (think original Monster cable) has high inductance. There is an article in BoxOffice Magazine by John Allen about a large cinema installation using Klipsch speakers that negated a measured a 5dB loss in VHF by using lower inductance wiring." agree...bi-wiring also allows placing HF sections on one tap, and LF sections on another tap of output transformers. This flexibility results in changing either the HF or LF section anywhere from +-3db to +- 6db. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 "A slightly longer answer...regardless of whether or not you biwire, the voltage at the input to the passive crossover for the tweeter is going to be the same because the bi-wire configuration shares the same node. Of course, if you believe this, then you should quickly realize that bi-wiring doesn't achieve anything either, but let's not go there " we should conceptualize all senerios....including when a fuse in either the HF or LF section blows.....and the effect it has on the other section....the stuff has to go somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 I think he's studying electrical engineering and think his profs know everything (hint: they don't). That's so incredibly off the mark it's not even funny. Bi-wiring can give an audible reduction in intermodulation distortion. It is most noticable in speakers with low impedance woofers and high impedance mids and highs (as most of the Klipsch Heritage series were). Really? I'll believe it when I see some measurements. I really don't care to read unfounded fanciful claims, despite who the author is. Where is the data? I don't care to "hear about" the measurements....let's see the actual plots. The increase in intemodulation distortion on that side was so bad that the bar owner called me in to fix the 'blown' JBL drivers! Any faulty connection will sound that way... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Didn't bother to read the Jon Risch paper I see. There are measurements in it, and a reference to the special test signal needed (available as a pre-print from the AES). Have a nice day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 Ok, so I went ahead and read through it all. I got turned off the first time by "audiophile" descriptions and the boring instructions on how to bi-wire. The current thing is interesting, but even he says it's barely audible and system dependant. Why bother playing with distortions 30-60dB down from the direct signal, when you can run an active crossover and address the huge swings in the direct sound and polars resulting from time arrival offsets??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 I admit is only a small improvement for most people, but the way I do it it can save money vs buying one run of $10 a foot wire. Before copper went up I could buy 18ga teflon wire out of stock where I work for $0.06 a foot. I've been biamping for over 30 years now, it's the only way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilMays Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 I've done both. Can I tell a difference in the Kimber bi-wire of 8 TC that I use at over $10 a foot...each....NO! However I could tell a difference right after I bought it...I wonder what that meant[:$] Do I still do it...Hell yea I do...I've bought the stuff...sooooo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 good wire article....it's pro 4 conductor....2 for each terminal http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_2/ultralink-CL414-cable-5-2003.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuzu Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_2/ultralink-CL414-cable-5-2003.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zuzu Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 Fritz or anyone. Is this 4 conductor ultralink wire approach what you use? Do you bi wire? Any idea how much those bananas cost?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 I use a 4 conductor setup....but it's and off the shelf item...not a DIY. The article provides some good info...and leads into a very useful DIY project. The grade of copper, and the part number spec/standard provided is worth noting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted August 12, 2007 Share Posted August 12, 2007 good wire article....it's pro 4 conductor....2 for each terminal http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_2/ultralink-CL414-cable-5-2003.html I read that article down to this statement: "If you took a tiny capacitor and put it in parallel with your loudspeaker terminals, it would reduce the bass. That is why they are used with tweeters in crossover networks. " I quit reading at that point. Bob Crites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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