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Fleapower KHorns


InnerTuber

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I listened to my Bottlehead S.E.X. amp on Marks Khorn speakers and

thought they were wonderful. He can comment on how he feels about

the flea power versus his push pull as he has more listening experience

but I loved it and volume at 2 watts was very far from a problem.

They got very loud and I didn't hear any clipping. Of course

Mark's speakers have about the best possible crossovers imaginable so I

am sure that helps! I have ordered a pair of Paramounts to go

with my Chorus II. Bottlehead makes a very good product and the

nice thing about the Paramounts is you have options in terms of using

either the 2a3 or 300B (I am going with the 300B myself). Go to

audioasylum.com and read about Welborne, there is a lot said and it

hasn't been nice lately. I don't want to bash them, I know

nothing about them, but read up on the customer service before you do

anything.

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For home theater, SET amps, in my experience, can be fine up to a point. I have to say for full dynamic effects on DVDs, my preference is for higher power, but I have my system setup so that I can alternate between different arrangements. I'm also virtually certain I heard the Moth 2A3 amp clip when listening to SACDs at volume levels higher than I normally listen -- so I turn the things down.

My experience over the years with Welborne Labs has always been positive, and I'll never part with our Moondogs.

Erik

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For home theatre I wouldn't even begin to give advice. I am
not into it being purely two channel stereo for listening and T.V.
being something I do sporadically. I am surprised that you would
hear the amp clip with the Moth. I am not completely familiar
with that speaker but given what I had assumed about its effeciency,
and my own experience with 2 watts into high effeciency, that does
surprise me. We were listening on the Klipsch at really high
levels and I heard nothing but sweet music. But if you heard it,
it probably was happening. I have been told I listen at pretty
low levels compared to others and
being over at Mark's I believe it. I find it physically painful
to
listen at the levels I have heard numerous other people listen at so
dynamics, not clipping, is usually my main concern at low levels.
As far as Welborne goes, I have never done business there but would
just caution somebody to go read the posts about getting orders filled
and make up their own mind taking your post into account as well.
A lot has been posted recently. The products have a good
reputation for sound, no argument there at all. That is not where
my concern was directed.



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I will also go to bat for the lowly 8 watt 300B output tube driving efficient Klipschorns. Although I have never owned Khorns (yet), my dad's old 98.5dB sensitive Cornwalls sound fantastic with my now-discontinued Model T3B 300B SET stereo amp from BEZ of Hong Kong. Even with my current 97dB efficient RB-75 monitors, this 8 watt amp has no problems whatsoever providing clean, detailed, and dynamic music to near-live levels in my small room (with the help of two subwoofers providing the bass frequencies). Since the Khorns are much more efficient than my Reference Series bookshelf monitors, even less rotation of the volume control will be needed to reach louder-than-normal levels with an 8 watt 300B SET amp...YMMV, natch!

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Paully:

"For home theatre I wouldn't even begin to give advice. I am not into it being purely two channel stereo for listening and T.V. being something I do sporadically. I am surprised that you would hear the amp clip with the Moth. I am not completely familiar with that speaker but given what I had assumed about its effeciency, and my own experience with 2 watts into high effeciency, that does surprise me."

The "Moth" I was referring to is an amplifier, the large one a few posts up with the blue AVVT tubes. It's not a speaker, although Moth Audio did make a Lowther-like driver design called the 'Cicada.' I understand what you're saying about just a couple of watts into speakers like Klipschorns or La Scalas. Even the 1.5 watt SE OTL (also see above) or the single-ended 45 amps I've had hear performed VERY satisfactorily with the Klipschorns. I've designed a new crossover for the K-horns that has slightly less insertion loss than even the type 'A' I made, and have been very happy with its performance with both higher and low power amplifiers.

Our main musical diet is classical Baroque, classical solo guitar, acoustic jazz, and similar. We don't listen very loud usually, either, and I still listen often in two channel stereo with those CDs that still sound better that way. For movie soundtracks, though, I have found amps in the range of 30-35 watts to work well, and am able to use those for that purpose, or for SACD sometimes. I prefer not to LOCK my thinking into any certain 'school' or orientation, and will use what works best for the application.

Erik

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Color me embarassed. I thought you were referring to the Moth

Cicada and I couldn't understand how three watts would clip with

it. I get it now. I also have a Dynaco that I am also

running into my Chorus II (25 watts) with very satisfactory results and

have been happy with the increased authority of that topology for years

though I have been going another direction lately, sometimes I wonder

if I am not doing for the sheer joy of something new. There are a

lot of intelligent people that will make an argument for SET,

Push-Pull, or solid state as the case may be based upon the strengths

of those mediums and their own preferences. I don't think I am

locked in any way (I hope). The funny thing I find is the most

vehement and dismissive, to me at least, seem to be the solid state

guys (some). The SET guys usually admit SET's faults (when is the

last time you heard a SET guy tell you that the bass of a SET amplifier

can't be beat?) and recognize the strengths of the other topologies,

they just know what they like best. The original post was about

what SET amp might work so I chimed in with my thoughts. My

thoughts are based a great deal on my visit with Mark and listening

with my S.E.X. amp on his marvelous speakers where I came away so

impressed and overawed that I immidiately bought the best Klipsch I

could afford (and honestly, that I had a snowball chance of fitting in

my room). I don't have my Paramounts yet so I will have to wait

to weigh in on how those sound though I bet they sound great. Its

all horses for courses regardless.

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I'm sure! The 300B, as Jim mentioned above, is a great sounding tube in a good amp (whether made in China or elsewhere). I've set up my own Welborne Labs Moondogs with 300Bs with tubes Jim very kindly gave me. That's on our other system, based on Heresies, where I set my preamp up to be able to switch between the Dynaco ST-70 and the Moondog 300B version.

I mentioned the idea/concept of music-specific amplifiers a few years ago (same reaction as the PWK minibox experiment), but for me it's a workable solution. Not always the most convenient, but in the long run better in terms of amp/speaker/music genre combinations.

Let us know when you get your new Bottlehead amp!

Erik

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Being able to switch between amps is a pretty nice idea, I wonder ho
hard that would be to implement in a Bottlehead Foreplay. There
are times I bet that I wish I could switch over to push-pull but won't
bother. I actually agonized over the decision wondering if I was
spending money needlessly I love my Dynaco so much.

After I get some time with the Paramounts I will post what I think.

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I listened to my Bottlehead S.E.X. amp on Marks Khorn speakers and thought they were wonderful. He can comment on how he feels about the flea power versus his push pull as he has more listening experience but I loved it and volume at 2 watts was very far from a problem. They got very loud and I didn't hear any clipping. Of course Mark's speakers have about the best possible crossovers imaginable so I am sure that helps! I have ordered a pair of Paramounts to go with my Chorus II. Bottlehead makes a very good product and the nice thing about the Paramounts is you have options in terms of using either the 2a3 or 300B (I am going with the 300B myself). Go to audioasylum.com and read about Welborne, there is a lot said and it hasn't been nice lately. I don't want to bash them, I know nothing about them, but read up on the customer service before you do anything.

Thanks for compliments on the speakers. I do agree that Paully's SET amp sounded best on my Khorns, although not bad on the other Heritage models. I had never heard a SET amp prior to Paul's visit and I learned a lot that day. I enjoy the sound of the topology for sure and can understand the loyal following. For me however, I have decent sized rooms and like to listen to tube systems with more authority and punch. I do not have an application that lends itself to SET in my case for my taste. I enjoy my 60 watt VRDs a lot and still continue to look at high powered s/s amps but haven't boughten one yet.

So.......are flea powered Khorns effective? The beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder. I am not going "there"....the place we all know that starts audio mini-wars. [:D]

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"I wonder ho hard that would be to implement in a Bottlehead Foreplay."

Not hard at all. You would need to either add another pair of jacks or give up one of the inputs, as well as use the selector switch to switch between the two amp outs rather than input sources -- meaning, you would have just one source. Or, add an additional selector switch, etc. I'm very familiar with the original Foreplay, but don't know what edition you have. In any case, it can be done.

You can also add another set of outputs in parallel, but I prefer not to do it that way. Just my opinion.

Erik

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A 450 microgram flea jumping a height of 3.50 cm moves at a speed of
approximately 1 m/s immediately after take off. The average power of the flea's legs is 229 microwatts (0.000229 Watts). An audio signal powered by 229 microwatts will drive a 105dB/W/m speaker to 69dB SPL, which might be a pretty sweet sound since the flea's legs are single ended.

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We have only heard two watts coming out of a 6DN7 tube on the
Klipsch. I have listened to various amps and speakers but haven't
listened to too many amps on Klipsch other than our various iterations
of the Dynaco and the S.E.X. amp. When I get my Paramounts maybe
another trip is in order to listen to 8-9 watts on some 300B's which is
a whole nother animal? It may be a while with the school year
keeping me busy but it is something to think about.

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Hi Pauln:

I like your illustration!

But I only got 154 uW.

Does this mean I am both impolite and wrong?

[;)]

Cheers, trioid

Fleas are so small and light that air resistance for them is hugh; they are probably subject to a little Brownian movement when resting.

The average power calc was based on that power being applied for the first 0.5mm as the legs extend and then break contact.

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Well I'm learning a lot here. So far, I'd say I've been swayed toward the Wright side of the equation basis customer service - and I'm peering at the new 300B offerring. I really appreciate the information, and even offers, here as I am fortunate enough to have the money to buy "something", but don't want to waste it.

I finally ran the concept of the Jubilees past my wife and actually mocked up a 70 inch DLP screen in the living room and said picture big ole Klipsh 535's on each side. I was amazed she didn't say no, or yes, but not no. To me, that's a first step victory. Our room is fairly big - I'll have to measure it, but I'd say about 45x24.

Working on the speakers and the amps will follow - gotta say again thanks for helping.

When I get a few spare moments I'll share my silly story about wife and I dancing in the living room when the stereo set off the alarm shatter detector ....

Have a great holiday weekend, we're doing ham, brauts, turkey legs and too much beer, wine and spirit(s).

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