paully Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 I listened to my Bottlehead S.E.X. amp on Marks Khorn speakers and thought they were wonderful. He can comment on how he feels about the flea power versus his push pull as he has more listening experience but I loved it and volume at 2 watts was very far from a problem. They got very loud and I didn't hear any clipping. Of course Mark's speakers have about the best possible crossovers imaginable so I am sure that helps! I have ordered a pair of Paramounts to go with my Chorus II. Bottlehead makes a very good product and the nice thing about the Paramounts is you have options in terms of using either the 2a3 or 300B (I am going with the 300B myself). Go to audioasylum.com and read about Welborne, there is a lot said and it hasn't been nice lately. I don't want to bash them, I know nothing about them, but read up on the customer service before you do anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 For home theater, SET amps, in my experience, can be fine up to a point. I have to say for full dynamic effects on DVDs, my preference is for higher power, but I have my system setup so that I can alternate between different arrangements. I'm also virtually certain I heard the Moth 2A3 amp clip when listening to SACDs at volume levels higher than I normally listen -- so I turn the things down. My experience over the years with Welborne Labs has always been positive, and I'll never part with our Moondogs. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paully Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 For home theatre I wouldn't even begin to give advice. I amnot into it being purely two channel stereo for listening and T.V.being something I do sporadically. I am surprised that you wouldhear the amp clip with the Moth. I am not completely familiarwith that speaker but given what I had assumed about its effeciency,and my own experience with 2 watts into high effeciency, that doessurprise me. We were listening on the Klipsch at really highlevels and I heard nothing but sweet music. But if you heard it,it probably was happening. I have been told I listen at prettylow levels compared to others andbeing over at Mark's I believe it. I find it physically painfultolisten at the levels I have heard numerous other people listen at sodynamics, not clipping, is usually my main concern at low levels. As far as Welborne goes, I have never done business there but wouldjust caution somebody to go read the posts about getting orders filledand make up their own mind taking your post into account as well. A lot has been posted recently. The products have a goodreputation for sound, no argument there at all. That is not wheremy concern was directed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 I will also go to bat for the lowly 8 watt 300B output tube driving efficient Klipschorns. Although I have never owned Khorns (yet), my dad's old 98.5dB sensitive Cornwalls sound fantastic with my now-discontinued Model T3B 300B SET stereo amp from BEZ of Hong Kong. Even with my current 97dB efficient RB-75 monitors, this 8 watt amp has no problems whatsoever providing clean, detailed, and dynamic music to near-live levels in my small room (with the help of two subwoofers providing the bass frequencies). Since the Khorns are much more efficient than my Reference Series bookshelf monitors, even less rotation of the volume control will be needed to reach louder-than-normal levels with an 8 watt 300B SET amp...YMMV, natch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 Paully: "For home theatre I wouldn't even begin to give advice. I am not into it being purely two channel stereo for listening and T.V. being something I do sporadically. I am surprised that you would hear the amp clip with the Moth. I am not completely familiar with that speaker but given what I had assumed about its effeciency, and my own experience with 2 watts into high effeciency, that does surprise me." The "Moth" I was referring to is an amplifier, the large one a few posts up with the blue AVVT tubes. It's not a speaker, although Moth Audio did make a Lowther-like driver design called the 'Cicada.' I understand what you're saying about just a couple of watts into speakers like Klipschorns or La Scalas. Even the 1.5 watt SE OTL (also see above) or the single-ended 45 amps I've had hear performed VERY satisfactorily with the Klipschorns. I've designed a new crossover for the K-horns that has slightly less insertion loss than even the type 'A' I made, and have been very happy with its performance with both higher and low power amplifiers. Our main musical diet is classical Baroque, classical solo guitar, acoustic jazz, and similar. We don't listen very loud usually, either, and I still listen often in two channel stereo with those CDs that still sound better that way. For movie soundtracks, though, I have found amps in the range of 30-35 watts to work well, and am able to use those for that purpose, or for SACD sometimes. I prefer not to LOCK my thinking into any certain 'school' or orientation, and will use what works best for the application. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 Paully: "The products have a good reputation for sound, no argument there at all. That is not where my concern was directed." I understand that. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paully Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 Color me embarassed. I thought you were referring to the Moth Cicada and I couldn't understand how three watts would clip with it. I get it now. I also have a Dynaco that I am also running into my Chorus II (25 watts) with very satisfactory results and have been happy with the increased authority of that topology for years though I have been going another direction lately, sometimes I wonder if I am not doing for the sheer joy of something new. There are a lot of intelligent people that will make an argument for SET, Push-Pull, or solid state as the case may be based upon the strengths of those mediums and their own preferences. I don't think I am locked in any way (I hope). The funny thing I find is the most vehement and dismissive, to me at least, seem to be the solid state guys (some). The SET guys usually admit SET's faults (when is the last time you heard a SET guy tell you that the bass of a SET amplifier can't be beat?) and recognize the strengths of the other topologies, they just know what they like best. The original post was about what SET amp might work so I chimed in with my thoughts. My thoughts are based a great deal on my visit with Mark and listening with my S.E.X. amp on his marvelous speakers where I came away so impressed and overawed that I immidiately bought the best Klipsch I could afford (and honestly, that I had a snowball chance of fitting in my room). I don't have my Paramounts yet so I will have to wait to weigh in on how those sound though I bet they sound great. Its all horses for courses regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paully Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 Great. And I understand that you have nothing but positive things to say about their service. And I have never dealt with them just read posts. That should be taken into account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paully Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 I really am looking forward to getting my own 300B amplifier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 I'm sure! The 300B, as Jim mentioned above, is a great sounding tube in a good amp (whether made in China or elsewhere). I've set up my own Welborne Labs Moondogs with 300Bs with tubes Jim very kindly gave me. That's on our other system, based on Heresies, where I set my preamp up to be able to switch between the Dynaco ST-70 and the Moondog 300B version. I mentioned the idea/concept of music-specific amplifiers a few years ago (same reaction as the PWK minibox experiment), but for me it's a workable solution. Not always the most convenient, but in the long run better in terms of amp/speaker/music genre combinations. Let us know when you get your new Bottlehead amp! Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paully Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 Being able to switch between amps is a pretty nice idea, I wonder hohard that would be to implement in a Bottlehead Foreplay. Thereare times I bet that I wish I could switch over to push-pull but won'tbother. I actually agonized over the decision wondering if I wasspending money needlessly I love my Dynaco so much. After I get some time with the Paramounts I will post what I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted August 29, 2007 Share Posted August 29, 2007 I listened to my Bottlehead S.E.X. amp on Marks Khorn speakers and thought they were wonderful. He can comment on how he feels about the flea power versus his push pull as he has more listening experience but I loved it and volume at 2 watts was very far from a problem. They got very loud and I didn't hear any clipping. Of course Mark's speakers have about the best possible crossovers imaginable so I am sure that helps! I have ordered a pair of Paramounts to go with my Chorus II. Bottlehead makes a very good product and the nice thing about the Paramounts is you have options in terms of using either the 2a3 or 300B (I am going with the 300B myself). Go to audioasylum.com and read about Welborne, there is a lot said and it hasn't been nice lately. I don't want to bash them, I know nothing about them, but read up on the customer service before you do anything. Thanks for compliments on the speakers. I do agree that Paully's SET amp sounded best on my Khorns, although not bad on the other Heritage models. I had never heard a SET amp prior to Paul's visit and I learned a lot that day. I enjoy the sound of the topology for sure and can understand the loyal following. For me however, I have decent sized rooms and like to listen to tube systems with more authority and punch. I do not have an application that lends itself to SET in my case for my taste. I enjoy my 60 watt VRDs a lot and still continue to look at high powered s/s amps but haven't boughten one yet. So.......are flea powered Khorns effective? The beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder. I am not going "there"....the place we all know that starts audio mini-wars. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 "I wonder ho hard that would be to implement in a Bottlehead Foreplay." Not hard at all. You would need to either add another pair of jacks or give up one of the inputs, as well as use the selector switch to switch between the two amp outs rather than input sources -- meaning, you would have just one source. Or, add an additional selector switch, etc. I'm very familiar with the original Foreplay, but don't know what edition you have. In any case, it can be done. You can also add another set of outputs in parallel, but I prefer not to do it that way. Just my opinion. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 I don't get it, how do these little bastards power a pair of speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 I don't get it, how do these little bastards power a pair of speakers. When they rub their legs it generates 2w. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 A 450 microgram flea jumping a height of 3.50 cm moves at a speed ofapproximately 1 m/s immediately after take off. The average power of the flea's legs is 229 microwatts (0.000229 Watts). An audio signal powered by 229 microwatts will drive a 105dB/W/m speaker to 69dB SPL, which might be a pretty sweet sound since the flea's legs are single ended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trioid Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Hi Pauln: I like your illustration! But I only got 154 uW. Does this mean I am both impolite and wrong? [] Cheers, trioid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paully Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 We have only heard two watts coming out of a 6DN7 tube on theKlipsch. I have listened to various amps and speakers but haven'tlistened to too many amps on Klipsch other than our various iterationsof the Dynaco and the S.E.X. amp. When I get my Paramounts maybeanother trip is in order to listen to 8-9 watts on some 300B's which isa whole nother animal? It may be a while with the school yearkeeping me busy but it is something to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted August 30, 2007 Share Posted August 30, 2007 Hi Pauln: I like your illustration! But I only got 154 uW. Does this mean I am both impolite and wrong? [] Cheers, trioid Fleas are so small and light that air resistance for them is hugh; they are probably subject to a little Brownian movement when resting. The average power calc was based on that power being applied for the first 0.5mm as the legs extend and then break contact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InnerTuber Posted September 1, 2007 Author Share Posted September 1, 2007 Well I'm learning a lot here. So far, I'd say I've been swayed toward the Wright side of the equation basis customer service - and I'm peering at the new 300B offerring. I really appreciate the information, and even offers, here as I am fortunate enough to have the money to buy "something", but don't want to waste it. I finally ran the concept of the Jubilees past my wife and actually mocked up a 70 inch DLP screen in the living room and said picture big ole Klipsh 535's on each side. I was amazed she didn't say no, or yes, but not no. To me, that's a first step victory. Our room is fairly big - I'll have to measure it, but I'd say about 45x24. Working on the speakers and the amps will follow - gotta say again thanks for helping. When I get a few spare moments I'll share my silly story about wife and I dancing in the living room when the stereo set off the alarm shatter detector .... Have a great holiday weekend, we're doing ham, brauts, turkey legs and too much beer, wine and spirit(s). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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