Crossover options for Klipschorns

[DrWho]

There are no digital inputs to the Dx38. It has a seperate analog volume control for each input after which it goes into an ADC. After all the processing it goes through a DAC and then to an analog output volume control before it goes out of the box.

Nominal input voltage is 1.55V, but it can handle up to 24.5V. Nominal output voltage is 1.55V, but can be cranked up to 8.7V.

I have a lot of experience with the Dx38 and can attest that it is a very quiet unit....even if you're not saturating the inputs and outputs. I think that's why they have the analog volume controls all over the device.

[Kudret]

Here is the price list for a few digital networks mentioned on this board:

Behringer DCX2496 - ~$200
Yamaha D2040 - ~$450
Electro-Voice Dx38 - $1288

DCX2496 looks like a good choice especially for beginners.

Kudret

[psg]

The thread has gone to a direction that I wouldn't have predicted. I don't currently have a budget sufficient for the EV (but don't object to the interesting thread high-jack), am I'm not sure the extra AD-DA conversion required are a good idea. The Behringer is intesresting, but I'm not sure sure how it would perform in a signal path between a receiver and external amps (i.e. not a nearly saturated signal, often 50 dB below peak!). This isn't strictly a 2-channel rig. It serves for CD, SACD, DVD and TV. As such, I could only put the Behringer after the receiver's pre-outs for the main channels.

I already have one external amp so this would require the purchase of two more, albeit low power.

Kudret, I'd love to hear your system the next time I'm in Montreal without family (that should be next late-March).

Please continue with the interesting discussion, and chime in with ALK Jr vs ALK Sr vs other regular crossovers as well.

[psg]

Here is the price list for a few digital networks mentioned on this board:

Behringer DCX2496 - ~$200
Yamaha D2040 - ~$450
Electro-Voice Dx38 - $1288

DCX2496 looks like a good choice especially for beginner.

The web page for the Behringer says US$340 and C$390. Unless they have import duties, they haven't adapted to the new dollar value!

[Kudret]

Kudret, I'd love to hear your system the next time I'm in Montreal without family (that should be next late-March).

Peter, just let me know when you are in Montreal. I also have some full-range at the moment but probably they won't last ubtil March.

As for Behringer price, they were selling for as low as $209 on eBay last week (that should be around, what, ~$200 CAD []) There is a used one on eBay from QC. If it doesn't go too high I will give it a shot

Kudret

[psg]

Thanks Kudret! I'll keep you in mind for March.

Think the Behringer would work between the receiver's pre-outs and external amps?

[DrWho]

Think the Behringer would work between the receiver's pre-outs and external amps?

Yep - just make sure you avoid any impedance mismatches (most receiver's pre-outs have a hard time driving a balanced connection) and keep the volume of the receiver as high as possible. You will then want to decrease the volume knobs on all your amps so that you can keep the noise floor down.

[Coytee]

Peter has indicated this thread has drifted from where he thought it would so this comment is going to be TOTALLY off base....

If someone had the money and intent.... you could use TWO Dx38's?

Each Dx38 has a mirrored output. You could either buy two and use one for each channel (triamping) or you could use them together and have your "in" line still take the signal in and feed the two outputs for each channel (say tweet & squawker). The mirrored output could then go to the second DX and let IT process the third channel (still triamping)

I'd expect if someone were to do that, it would be more simple to just do one DX per channel, you'd then have one unused output on the DX (out to sub??!!!)

Not suggesting anyone would REALLY do this, just thinking how you could make it work with an "insufficient" tool to do a 3 way.

[djk]

The earlier version of the EV crossover was the DX34, it has a 24 bit 56007 processor with 18bit 64X oversampled A/D conversion. Two in, four out.

EV did not design this in a vacum, it was an effort of several companies (and Motorola). It is sold with a different front panel (and controls) under various names.

This one went for $84 last month:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Peavey-PC4-XL-Phase-Coherent-4-Way-Crossover_W0QQitemZ320157515073QQihZ011QQcategoryZ23790QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Here is a cleaner CEX4:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Peavey-Time-align-crossover-4-way-Digital-Processor_W0QQitemZ130157443121QQihZ003QQcategoryZ23790QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Erik Mandaville]

Kudret:

Again, not trying to be contrary, but that difference is not significant, IMO. Even autoformers can distribute slightly unbalanced impedance loads, however, this is also a case where a variable L-pad could very simply take care of the slight difference in gain (if you can detect any). Not trying to belabor the variable L-pad issue, but I'm telling the truth about this.

Erik

[psg]

But keeping the volume of the receiver as high as possible and the decreasing the volume knobs on all your amps is exactly what I meant not to do when I asked if it would work anyway.

I have 3 other speakers and a sub to change the volume on. It's gotta be done at the level of the pre-outs of the receiver, or not at all. So it's not at all for me? Stick with a passive ALK instead?

Think the Behringer would work between the receiver's pre-outs and external amps?

Yep - just make sure you avoid any impedance mismatches (most receiver's pre-outs have a hard time driving a balanced connection) and keep the volume of the receiver as high as possible. You will then want to decrease the volume knobs on all your amps so that you can keep the noise floor down.

[psg]

Someone pointed me to a middle ground in price between the Behringer and the EV:

http://www.proaudiosolutions.com/product-p/ashly-xr2001.htm

What about the even cheaper Behringer crossovers:

http://www.behringer.com/CX2310/index.cfm?lang=eng

http://www.behringer.com/CX3400/index.cfm?lang=eng

Here is the price list for a few digital networks mentioned on this board:

Behringer DCX2496 - ~$200

Yamaha D2040 - ~$450

Electro-Voice Dx38 - $1288

DCX2496 looks like a good choice especially for beginners.

Kudret

[PrestonTom]

If you go the Behringer route, stick with the 2496DCX, those other Behringer units lack a number of important features.

However, DJK has identified some very interesting possibilities (differently wrapped EV-like units) that most of us (certainly me) were unaware of.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[DrWho]

I have 3 other speakers and a sub to change the volume on. It's gotta

be done at the level of the pre-outs of the receiver, or not at all.

So it's not at all for me? Stick with a passive ALK instead?

You can totally control the volume on the receiver.

You just want to set everything up so that the loudest SPL coming out of your speakers correlates to your receiver being cranked up all the way...this ensures that the noise floor through the crossover is as low as possible. If you never notice any hiss, then you have nothing to worry about.

[psg]

I have 3 other speakers and a sub to change the volume on. It's gotta be done at the level of the pre-outs of the receiver, or not at all. So it's not at all for me? Stick with a passive ALK instead?

You can totally control the volume on the receiver.

You just want to set everything up so that the loudest SPL coming out of your speakers correlates to your receiver being cranked up all the way...this ensures that the noise floor through the crossover is as low as possible. If you never notice any hiss, then you have nothing to worry about.

Ah! Interesting! Now, can anyone with experience with such a Behringer chime in and say whether feeding a signal 40 dB below saturation still results in good sound?

Actually, now I'm thinking that a switched (on/off) 6-channel 40dB attenuator shouldn't be too hard to build. Then, when listenning to 2-channel at moderate volume, I could enable the attenuator, crank up the volume on the receiver to close to 0dB, nearly-saturating the Behringer, and listen at low volumes with full quality. Cool. I'm starting to be glad of the direction this thread has taken after all!

[psg]

You know what makes a nice 6-channel volume control to put after the Behringer (to allow it to work at full input signal)?

An HT receiver with 6-channal inputs and pre-outs! Even better, I could use the 6 amps in the receiver to drive the pair of speakers too.

What signal-path would sound better, first:

Philips SA-963 --digital--> Behringer --analog--> h/k receiver 6-ch analog inputs --> Klipsch drivers.

It would allow time-alignment of the 3 drivers. Would this sound better than the more traditional:

Philips SA-963 --analog--> h/k receiver 6-ch analog inputs --> ALK Universal passive crossover --> Klipsh drivers.

[PrestonTom]

Now we are getting down to brass tacks, good.

A 6-channel volume control is a tough one. I am using a "passive pre-amp" with 2 stereo pots mechanically ganged together (net 4 channels). This is homemade device and it need not be expensive; however it does require some consideration about the relative input & output impedance's of the various devices upstream (it can limit your choices). However you may be quite happy using a HT as the volume control, I don't know.

The Behringer in its stock form can not provide a digital output. You must use its DAC.

If the question is whether the time-alignment and steepish filters provided by the Behringer (or Peavey or EV etc) are an improvement. I would think so. Much of ALKs emphasis (IMO) was directed at a crossover that presented a constant impedance to an amplifier and to a lesser extent, minimizing the insertion loss. For certain kinds of tube amps, this can be a consideration. Does this benefit extend to other kinds of amps? I was never given a convincing answer, but maybe I am a dope. It would be best if ALK explained his decision making on that issue. Certainly, if you listen to the testimonials, the Universal crossover from ALK is the greatest thing since sliced bread. However many (but not all) of these comparisons were made against 20 year old networks that may have simply benefited from some refreshed caps (and you have already done that).

If you do go the simpler route, there are other network designs (not just parts upgrades, which include a number of possibilities) that have floated around the forum. These would include suggestions made by DJK, John Albright, John Warren, and an upgrade from Klipsch (AKxx). I am sure I have forgotten others. It still begs the question however. You have refreshed the caps and noticed the improvement. What is it about your current configuration that you are unhappy about?

Try and get some perspectives from others who have had a chance to fool around with time alignment and steep filters. There are potentially a number of benefits, although some of these differences may be magnified depending on how "lively" your room is.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[psg]

Thanks for your answer Tom. There's nothing I dislike about the sound now. But the thing is that there was nothing I disliked before the cap refreshment either, and that made a huge change for the better. So as good as they are now, perhaps they could be better still. After reading many positive testimonials from people who had tried after-market networks, I'll willing to gamble it it's not just an inaudible-to-anyone-else audiphile tweak like wire.

I wanted Klipschorns since I was 16 years old, when I first saw them, so I have no desire to completely replace them. I do realise that at some point they aren't Klipschorns anymore after too many mods.

I was thinking that I could get an otherwise obsolete receiver cheaply as a volume control and 6-channel amplifier, or use my current one (hk avr325) when I need to upgrade to HDMI switching in the future. But I would only do it if I get good sound out of the Behringer. The thread started mostly discussing much more expensive active crossovers, and someone on another forum doesn't think the Behringer is audiophile quality and that I'd regret it. But that person wouldn't approve of my system anyway (not even sure about Klipschorn approval! Hah!), so I'd be happy to hear from a happy user of that model here, in an application similar to mine.

I haven't decided anything yet. I may still go passive with an ALK or other. My initial post was to ask about what my passive options were; I hadn't even considered active...

[psg]

As for Behringer price, they were selling for as low as $209 on eBay last week (that should be around, what, ~$200 CAD []) There is a used one on eBay from QC. If it doesn't go too high I will give it a shot

Let me know if you decide on not bidding (3 days left). I would bid but don't want to bid against you.

[mikebse2a3]

As for Behringer price, they were selling for as low as $209 on eBay last week (that should be around, what, ~$200 CAD []) There is a used one on eBay from QC. If it doesn't go too high I will give it a shot

Let me know if you decide on not bidding (3 days left). I would bid but don't want to bid against you.

In case you didn't know you can usually pickup the Behringer DCX2496 at several places New for $269 sometimes with free shipping. So I definitly wouldn't pay to close to that for a used one myself.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=248-669&CFID=6962078&CFTOKEN=42052923

also Guitar Center or Musician Friends has them for the same amount.

mike tn