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Klipsch Epic CF 3 Version 1 In Da House


ka7niq

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Do it in steps, passive biamp first, since you have your second amp on the way, right ?

Then, if you like, u can go into the crossover, and replace Capacitors, if u feel comfortable doing it.

Inductors can also be replaced, as can resistors.

But be aware that any and all money you spend on crossover upgrades will be wasted IF you go to an electronic crossover.

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Good advice though I think someone out there would buy upgraded xovers if the parts were good. I think that upgraded passive xovers will provide the best possible reference when attempting to make the jump to active crossovers. I have not done this myself yet so cannot speak from experience. So I don't see money spent on passive xovers a waste. Best regards Moray James.

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I have rebuilt several of the CF-3 and CF-4 crossovers. Very complex crossovers for Klipsch designs. I am not sure the crossover can be changed much and still work right. You can replace the caps without any problem and go through it correcting some of the solder joints that are not the best. Solder connections seem to be the main reason they need work as far as I can tell by the ones that have been sent to me.

Now this part is hard for me to explain. When I test a CF-3 or CF-4 crossover, seems to me that the crossover needs to be completely reassembled to test right. In other words, seems that some amount of interaction between the inductors must be there to test right. If that is correct, it would be problematic to replace any of the inductors or autotransformer with anythiing other than the exact same part. That would also prevent me ever being able to build completely new crossovers on a wooden board like I do for other Klipsch crossovers.

Bob Crites

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I totally agree, The first thing I did is re solder the entire crossover. I did not change the caps, but we did test them for both ESR and value after we pulled them. They were spot on for value, and ESR was pretty low, not perfect like a new poly cap, but still pretty low. I re used them,

Some solder joints were atrocious. I guess I could have checked them with my meter, but my intent was to simply resolder ALL the connections myself, so why bother.

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  • 1 month later...

Hello,

I am from Germany and I think I am one of the few people who have Epics over here in Europe. Mine are V1 and I absolutely love them. I am driving them with two Marantz MA-700 Monos (200W) and I also notice a slight "harshness" or "hotness" from the horns on some music tracks. I have expermented with lowering treble about -2 dB @2500Hz with the GEQ on my Yamaha and I like what I am hearing. Would this bi-amping approach be similar or better?

I might have the opportunity to get my hands on a Parasound HCA 1500. Would that be a good fit for driving the LF section and let the Marantz (they also have input level controls) take the horns?

Any other Amp recommendations?

I am looking forward to your responses!

N.

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Hey NimaBeamer, we're glad you are here! [<:o)]

I don't know if "Bi-amping" will help much. I find that room placement has the biggest effect on the sound. What's your room like? Do you have the Epic's against the wall? Are they "toed" in towards the listening position? Do you have any room treatments like diffusers or absorbers on the wall, ceiling, etc?

What year were your speakers made? Have you updated or replaced the capacitors? Older dried up capacitors can really have an effect on the sound.

Tell us as much as you can about your set up and we'll try to help you get the best sound that you can.


Dennie

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Hello Nima: I would suggest that you do some simple yet effective modification work on your CF3 before you change out your amplification. First I would suggest that you stiffen the horn bodies, I have used plastic 3/4" hot water type split in half, cut lengths are then glued onto the back side of the horn. The remaing surface is then damped with Dynamat. These horns are cheaply made (but very well designed) and the horn wall thickness is such that it will flex especially when you are playing loud.

The second thing that I would do is to damp the K63KN drivers. These neo drivers respond well to external Dynamat damping as well as to some internal Dynamat and some SAE rated F-11 acoustical felt. This type of modification will not fail to impress you. I would also sugest a number of other simple modifications which will take you speakers even farther but lets leave that for the moment. I am sorry that I don't have a camera but I may be able to have a friend visit some time and take pictures for me so I can post to you.

I would also strongly suggest that you raise your loudspeakers up so thet the centre of the horn in directly on axis to your ear at your seated location. This will significantly improve your sound stage and image quality. I hope that this is of interest. Best regards Moray James.

PS: big + on Dennie's suggestions.

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Hello Dennie & Moray,

let me try and answer your questions:

My room is fully treated with fiber absorbers both for LF and for 1st reflections etc. The CF3 are toed in to my listening position and on a 6" stand which is filled with sand.

I have not replaced anything in the speakers because I am quite frankly afraid to open them up and I am not the DIY person. Are those treatments in the loudspeaker crucial? I could ask my hifi repair guy.

Moray I found the dampening plates here in Germany but I do not know which kind of plastic you are describing.

I will soon get a Parasound pre-amp and a Peachtree DAC and will then have a dedicated 2CH system which will fit into my HT set-up. I hope this will make a first difference.

I was asking abou the bi-amping with level control of the horn because I have read that serveral times no in conjunction with the Epic CF-3.

Looking forward to hearing more from you guys and thanks for the welcome!

N.

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DynamatIs used mostly to damp automobile panels. Do you know anybody who is into modification who might help you out on your side of the pond? I will make some effort after Christmas to get you some photographs. I currently have a set of KLF20 drivers which are fully modified out to New Mexico on loan to a member. Isuppose I could send you a set of fully modified K63KN drivers and all you would have to do would be to remove your horn and exchange the drivers re install the horns and listen. The only problem with that is the cost of shipping drives in two directions and possible duties insurance etc. At least the K63KN is light weight being a neo driver. If you are interested you can PM me and perhaps we can work something out. Best regards Moray James.

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The slight harshness you hear is because the horns level is a little hotter then it could be. This is easily fixed by biamping, and using an amp on the horns that has level controls.

Also, do NOT rope caulk the horns in the CF series speakers. been there, done that, it sucks!

Once you can control the level of the horn, you will know a new freedom and happiness. It is that simple.

The little Parasound HCA 500 sounded great on my horns, and had level controls. But any decent amp with level controls should work well on the horns.

My Kid listens to Heavy Metal, and some of that crap is terribly recorded, made to sound good on speakers with out truly flat high frequency response.

Play it on speakers that are close to flat, and it sounds terrible.

Many commercial recordings are this way.

But, once you can control the horns level, you can make anything sound good.

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I found the primary cause of the irritating sound quality I was getting from my Klipsch KLF-30s. (This is also applies to my Epic CF-3 speakers.) It's something that was right under my nose but I didn't want to admit. Due to personal problems, I had to move from a house to an apartment. I couldn't deal with the idea that my room size was now too small for the KLF-30s.(Or my son's room for his CF-3s.) So basically, I can't turn up the volume enough to get the woofers into action without damaging my hearing. I either get a thin irritating horn sound or very loud volumes that are uncomfortable. These are big speakers and require a big room to open up. One can't sit three feet from the horns. So I had to do the unthinkable. I downsized to bookshelf speakers. My problems are gone. I really love those monsters but I have to face reality. They're simply not made for small rooms.

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I am really sorry to hear that you felt that you had to sell your KLF30 that's a shame I know that you loved them. I am sorry to say that I don't agree with your apprasial of the situation. I would suggest that the problem that you were experiencing was likely due to simple positioning of the speaker and or possibly the amplifier that you are using. In fact in smaller rooms larger horn can have definate benefits. Best regards Moray James.

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I understand what you are saying! In a very small room, problems are amplified sometimes. I bought CF 4 version 1's in a small waterfront apartment here in Florida!

I sat 5 feet away! The passive biamp setup I suggest for the Klipsch EPIC C 3 and CF 4 (they are the only CF series speakers I have owned) allows you to reduce the output of the horn. Through a LOT of experimentation, I have found that this is the very best strategy to do to your CF 3 and CF 4 series speakers. After I ran my Klipsch CF 4 Series 1 speakers this way, I loved them! I moved 2 times from that very small apartment, into both meduim and very large room houses, and the CF 4's always sounded great!

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That is very good news it seemd otherwise to me. I have experimented with turning the horn to flip the polar pattern. I understand this leaves a hole which must be covered and a horn on the top of the cabinet but remember I did say experiment and the game plan was to establish if it would work in my room. This is a very room dependant thing to do and yes it works extreemely well in my room enough so that I had planned a new set of fully braced and better built cabinets. While the new cabinets are still in the plans. I may have found a better horn which is not only larger but it is also square and that will allow for simple polar flips (60 x90) with no cabinet issues aside from removing some new stainless machine screws. You might want to give the horns a flip.

I have also had excellent results with using acoustical felt (f-11) as an acoustical filter both inside the woofers over the spider and outside over the woofer to filter mid output so as to minimize range overlap, I want the horn doing the mid not the woofers. This is a very effective method and with a little experimentation yields excellent results. I utilize this same technique in my Heresy lll. As I stated before proper physical damping and bracing also yields excellent results. Things which are not designed to move simply should not do so and even what only seems a little vibration can often be detrimental. Structural bracing and stiffening will drive up resonant modes to frequency points where they actually can be damped effectively. Damping is very useful so long as you get your ducks in a row first. I hope that this is of interest. Best regarda Moray James..

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Moray, thanks for all the help. I actually have enough equipment to bi-amp those speakers. The problem again is lack of space. I don't even have enough space to add another amplifier! You wouldn't believe what my apartment looks like. The whole place is filled with audio equipment in different stages of restoration. I can't buy any more records because I have no place to put them. Conditions are critical. One of the reasons for moving my KLF-30s out of my room is that they took up so much space, you literally would have trouble walking.

My new area for them is perfect. They would fill half the apartment with music.

I just ordered speaker stands for the bookshelf speakers in my bedroom. After disposing of the table they're on now, it will free up a great deal of space. I also have to..I can't write this without bringing a tear to my eye--liquidate my Sansui collection. I'm just keeping the units I use and one extra one I can't part with. I already gave my Sansui 8 deluxe to a good friend as a Christmas gift. I just have to pack it correctly, which is not a small task. That thing is heavy. If i told someone to lift it without a warning about its weight, a hernia would be the least severe physical injury I would expect.[:D] Is anyone a fan of American dad? Remember the episode where Stan blew out his sphincter?

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