Klipsch Epic CF 3 Version 1 In Da House

[NimaBeamer]

Thank you everyone for the help. I think I will try the Bi-Amp with level controls route since I am shopping for a new amp anyway and can try it for a while with the Marantz Monos before I move them to the surrounds.

What amplifier would be a good fit? Do you use the same brand for LF and HF? What specs should the amplifier have? I have read in another thread that although the Epics are quite efficent they would love high wattage?

I am looking forward to hearing from you. Merry Christmas!

[moray james]

Bi amping is great and it is very handy if you can uses amps which have individual channel gain control. CF3/4 woofers do like to see a very solid amplifier with a stable and solid supply meaning a doubling of wattage every time you halve the impedance. There are a number of ways to biamp. The most comon is for people to use two stereo amplifiers one amp as woofers left and right speakers connected to its left and right channels the other amplifier has the left and right horns connected to the left and right channels (you can see the advantage of indepemt channel gain control). This method is known as Horizontal biamping for obvious reasons. This method is fine for the horns but suffers on the woofers as you are now asking one amp to drive both channels to do maximum work at the same time. The next method is to have two identical stereo amplifiers each amp runs on speaker. Channel A runs the horns channel B runs the woofers. You can see the immediate advantage here since the horns make little to no demand of the amplifier supplyleaving extra current for the channel driving the woofers. This assumes a shared stereo power supply which is very common in stereo amps. This method is know as Vertical biamping and is prefered. I would suggest that you consider and listen to some pro amplifiers as you may well find you dollar gos farther and the sound quality can be excellent.

All of this amplification will not deal in any way with physical structural resonance of cabinets woofers drivers or horns. These will remain untill they are dealt witn. Hope this helps and that you have a great Christmas. Best regards Moray James.

[ka7niq]

Good advice Moray, especially about the Pro Amps, and THEY all seem to have level controls too!

The designer of the Klipsch Epic CF Series Speakers, Roy Delgado, uses a Yamaha Integrated amp at home he told me.

I ran mine using the little Parasound HCA 500 amp on the horns Moray, and on the woofers I think it was a Hafler 500.

I am not nuts about Hafler 500's, it was just what I had. The Little Parasound HCA 500, run full range, bettered the Hafler 500, even though it lacked the big power of the Hafler.

Then, I picked up some Yamaha Pro Sound amp Chinese Copies off of Ebay. They were called GVDaudio P 6500s. They are very powerful amplifiers, and I only paid 179.00 each for them!

I ran one amp each, on one speaker, using the A side to drive the horns, and the B side to drive the woofers. I found myself missing the warmth of the little Parasound HCA 500, so I went back to it, and used one of the Yamaha Clones to drive the woofers, instead of the Hafler 500.

I have kept the little Parasound 500 for nearly 12 years! In fact, I still have it! It is NOT a John Curl design, it was designed by the founder of Parasound. It is a dark and warm sounding amp, just the thing to "tame" a bright set of speakers, w/o resorting to tubes, LOL

Roy Delgado really likes the CF series speakers, and told me it was his opinion they are one of the best speakers Klipsch ever made, with the exception of the Jubilees he was working on, back then.

I had CF 3's at that time, version 2's. He told me what marketing guys did to his masterpiece, when they went to the version 2. In an effort to get more efficeincy, he said they turned the version 2's into a "Boom Box", by raising the woofer tuning frequency, as well as a slight crossover mod. He was unable to provide me with schematics, so we could see what was done to the crossovers.

He strongly suggested I sell my CF 3 version 2's and find CF 4's version 1's. Not only would I gain 3db efficiency he said, but the crossover in the CF 4 "worked out better" he told me.

He was right, of course!

I found that the CF 4 version 1 really "needed" nothing, except tone controls SOMETIMES, to sound awesome! Please don't laugh, but I had an old Pioneer Surround receiver that had the ability to remember tone control settings, and then control them remotely. You could program up to 20 tone control setting, and then switch them in with the remote control.

One setting might have the bass up 2 notches, and the treble up 1, the next setting could have the bass up 1 and treble up 2, and so on, and so on.

So, you played a CD, and then went through all the settings, until whatever CD you were listening to, sounded it's best!

Or, when you were playing quality recordings, it also allowed you to bypass ALL of it.

I am 58 years old Moray, and have literally owned over 100 pairs of expensive speakers, from B&W 801 to Quad 63's to Acoustat model 8's, all the Magnepans including Tympany 1's.

I ave had 3 pairs of corner horns, 2 klipschhorns, and a speaker factory one. I have had Belles LaScalas Cornwalls, Heresy, and original Forte's/

But I must say this, the Klipsch CF 4's version 1's, with that old Pioneer receiver, and it's remotely controlled tone controls was the ONE setup I WISH I had back!

Like a dumb azz, I told everyone about the Klipsch CF series speakers, and the differences in the series. Now, everyone wants CF 4's Version 1's,LOL

They are almost impossible to find, and IF you are lucky enough to locate a pair, you will pay dearly for them!

But Moray, I guess it was all worth it, because many who Lurk here, and seldom if ever post, have written me Thank You Chris messages!@

Oh, and by the way, Merry Christmas to you Moray, and everyone else!

[NimaBeamer]

Hello,

thank you again for those recommendations. Getting good Pro amps in Germany is a little bit difficult. There are many but I have not read good things about them.

With vertical bi-amping the difficulty is finding the two same stereo amps which also have to have level controls. I was looking into Emotiva but they dropped level controls from their amps.

How about a Parasound HCA 2205? http://www.parasound.com/vintage/hca2205at.php

It is a little bit expensive even used but should provide ample power right? I have read a lot of good things about it. Any concerns using a multi-channel amp?

Thanks,

N.

[moray james]

getting pro amps is the easiest thing in the world. Go to a music shop where musicians buy equipment. Forget what you read and find an amp, a small one of say one hundred watts a channel stereo with a gain control for each channel and listen to it. Find one you like take it home and listen to it. When you find the one you like best (probably under $250.00 each) buy a second on and go.I would recommend vertical biamping. You will never look back. So you want an amp which will run 100 watts into 8 ohms and then do 200 watts into 4 ohms and say275 - 300 watts into 2 ohms. That will give you a solid amp which will spend the rest of it life coasting along with you and your CF3 speakers. Don't bother with AV amps you would be wasting your money. There are lots of pro amps which sound exellent. Good luck please keep us posted. Best regards Moray James.

[NimaBeamer]

Thank you Moray. Does the amp have to be able to play at 2 ohms? The amps which are stable down to 2 Ohm cost far more than 250 each here in Germany.

[moray james]

No your speakers will not make that kind of demand but if an amp can keep doubling its output in watts every time the impedance is cut in half then that indicates a really solid and well built amp. You want the amp to be able to double its power into 4 ohms. Do not overlook the used market either. Good luck in your search and best regards Moray James.

[NimaBeamer]

Thank you, I think I will also look for used Parasound amps since the German service center is close to where I live.

One more question: Would bi-amping and turning the level on the HF down be the same thing/effect as for instance lowering the frequency from 1000Hz with a parametric EQ? Or would the level control have only an effect on the frequency starting from a certain volume or load?

Sorry to ask these questions but I am no Technican or Electrian and I am trying to wrap my head around this.

[moray james]

When you use a parametric EQ you have a series od central EQ pionts at each one of theose frequency points you have the ability of raising or lowering the level of that central frrequency point. Remember thoygh that that central frequency id the centrs of a curve qhich is half of an ellipse. So when you raise or lower a given central frequency you are really raising and lowering thea whole cruve. If you biamp and you shift the level of the amp of the horn you are shifting the level of the full bandwidth of the horn. Remember also that having a gain setting is not simply about level setting though that is the major component but that you can with the gain setting adjust how the amplifier sounds. You can find the gain setting at which for your given load suites the amplifier best. This can have a remarkable impact on how the amplifier sounds.

I hope that I have answered your question and made things easier to understand . Please keep us posted and let us know how this all works out for you. Best regards Moray James.

[gagelle]

This is a perfect example of a great question and answer. It's a subject I know nothing about and hits with the force and excitment of new knowledge. Wouldn't it have been easy and cheap to just put in an equilizer? It goes to show how deep sound engineering really goes.

Thanks again Morey for a terrific lesson.

My son may join the discussion because he's having the same problem with his Epic CF-3s. I was mistaken about my extra amplifiers. They do not have any controls. He doesn't have the money for two new amplifiers. We're going to try the cheapest solutions first, like raising up the speakers and putting some damping material around the horns.

[moray james]

Well thank you but you are far too kind. Just by way of example right now I an biamping my H3 with a different set of amplifiers. The amps in use right now belong to a friend , he boutht them at my suggestion but then decided not to use them on his Harbeth HL5. I set them up in my system to show him what he could so with these amp. The amplifiers are very good little Chinese amps the do have gain control by the way. Total cost of these 40 watt per channel into 8 ohm amps was $336.00 shipping and duty included. They sound excellent and are amazingly close in sound quality to the upgraded Quad 405 amps which normally run in a biamp set up.Playing with the gain settin shifts the entire character of the reproduction so much from on extreem to another and when dialed in is wonder to listen to.

Shifting back to what I had been saying about structural brace work and stiffening and damping the horns themselves, if you cabinets and or horns are making noisethen the only correct response is to make it stop. It is not hard or complicated nor is it overly expensive to do so. Please keep us posted as to your progress as I find each little yet effective step leads me to the next and on it goes. Best regards Moray James.

[NimaBeamer]

Thank you again Moray. I received my new 2ch Parasound pre-amp today and did some listening. It is definately an improvement over the 2ch with the Yamaha AVR. I cannot wait to add the DAC.

One more question, I mostly notice the harsh sound when play music loud. Is this a sign of my Marantz Mono amps caving in? Also what is best practice of setting input level controls on an amp? I have currently set the levels on my Marantz amps to full. Later when bi-amping, do I set LF amp to full and only turn down the HF section? I know there are different school of thoughts regarding setting input levels on an amp.

Looking forward to hearing some ideas.

[moray james]

Have you got any other loudspeakers to compare to? You need to establish where the harsh sound is comong from. There are a number of posibilities so you are just going to have to do your home work. I mentioned that the horn walls are thin and unbraced and that they flex when the speakers are played a high levels. I adjust the gain setting of each channel to make the amp sound best with its load.Try listenig to some of the two channel pro amps 50 - 100 watts a channel that should be in your price range and give you lots of watts. Remember that you don't need as much power per channel when you are biamping as the amp has a much easier time of things with a narrower bandwidth and very often an easier load as well.good luck and best regards Moray James.

[NimaBeamer]

Ok, I sat down and I think I have done my homework.

I borrowed the amp from my girlfriend and tried some bi-amping (horizontal). At the beginning I noticed the tighter bass and control of the Epics the Pioneer amp of my girlfriend had over the Epics even though it was only rated at 100W compared to the 200W of my Marantz. I also listened to only the LF and the HF section alone with the other amps shut off. I was suprised who little came from the Horns, now I understand why everyone says they do not need much power.

I then tried to take the level of the horns down a bit and find a sweet spot. Eventually I settled with the input level at 9 o'clock, the Pioneer amp did not have level controls.

With that setting I had a kicking, thumping bass and good midranges and highs without sounding too fatiguing or harsh. The bass was so powerfull that at times I thought my subwoofers were activated as well.

[ka7niq]

Well, now you are finding out that the level of the Horns was the major problem, like I have been trying to say.

[Dennie]

One more question, I mostly notice the harsh sound when play music loud. Is this a sign of my Marantz Mono amps caving in? .

Hey NimaBeamer, Congratulations on the Parasound 2 ch pre-amp! [<)]

The "harshness" could be caused by your room. The louder you play it, the more the room comes into play.

Have you played with speaker placement, when playing loud? Or tried covering bare flooring, tables, walls with a blanket or something, trying to calm reflections?

The room is a major component on any stereo system.

Keep us posted and continue to enjoy this great hobby of ours! []

Dennie

[NimaBeamer]

Well, now you are finding out that the level of the Horns was the major problem, like I have been trying to say.

ka7niq I never doubted this approach but it was good to try it out before purchasing new amps from my hard earned money. Thank you very much for bringing my attention to this "mod". [Y][Y]

How did you set the levels? Did you read the levels with a meter? Did you put LF to full and then just reduced the Horn?

Edit: n.b. I am asking because the Parasound multi-channel amp I am looking to purchase has input level controls but afaik they are not marked ones, so I guess I have to find the rigth setting on both horn channel and remember them. I am also looking for a "set & forget" setting rather than changing the gain of the horn too often.

[NimaBeamer]

One more question, I mostly notice the harsh sound when play music loud. Is this a sign of my Marantz Mono amps caving in? .

Hey NimaBeamer, Congratulations on the Parasound 2 ch pre-amp!

The "harshness" could be caused by your room. The louder you play it, the more the room comes into play.

Have you played with speaker placement, when playing loud? Or tried covering bare flooring, tables, walls with a blanket or something, trying to calm reflections?

The room is a major component on any stereo system.

Keep us posted and continue to enjoy this great hobby of ours!

Dennie

Hi Dennie,

I have treated the room with accoustic absorbers and have of course a rug. The absorbers are made of a special glass wool (Isover) and are placed in the places where 1st reflections occur, front corners are filled with wool as well. I have measured my RT60 with REW and it looks very good.

Nima

[moray james]

You might want to experiment with some open cell foam on the conical section of the horn. I ususally extend the foam from the start of the throat to about 1 1/4 to a 1/2 inch past the transition section of the horn. Pore size I use is about 3/32 of an inch perhaps a little larger.Bracing the horns als helps as the walls are so thin. Congrats on your new speakers. Prehaps you can draw a schematic of the xovers I would be interested to see that. Best regards Moray James.

[gagelle]

Well thank you but you are far too kind. Just by way of example right now I an biamping my H3 with a different set of amplifiers. The amps in use right now belong to a friend , he boutht them at my suggestion but then decided not to use them on his Harbeth HL5. I set them up in my system to show him what he could so with these amp. The amplifiers are very good little Chinese amps the do have gain control by the way. Total cost of these 40 watt per channel into 8 ohm amps was $336.00 shipping and duty included. They sound excellent and are amazingly close in sound quality to the upgraded Quad 405 amps which normally run in a biamp set up.Playing with the gain settin shifts the entire character of the reproduction so much from on extreem to another and when dialed in is wonder to listen to.

Shifting back to what I had been saying about structural brace work and stiffening and damping the horns themselves, if you cabinets and or horns are making noisethen the only correct response is to make it stop. It is not hard or complicated nor is it overly expensive to do so. Please keep us posted as to your progress as I find each little yet effective step leads me to the next and on it goes. Best regards Moray James.

Hi Morey,
My son complains that his CF-3s sound irritating but only on poor recordings. There is no distortion or vibration that he can hear, only a thin, irritating horn-like sound that gradually gets on his nerves. On well mastered recordings, they sound great. In fact, he has been participating in the "Steve Hoffman Forum" to find the best pressings of his favorite rock CDs.

When he makes the music loud, the annoying, piercing quality definitely increases. In this case, I can see the probability that those huge woofers are causing resonance from the horns. Damping them would be the easiest solution for us. Also, raising them a foot should help because right now, the horns are level with his ears when he's in a sitting position. But to reiterate, we didn't notice a problem when the speakers were in a large living room.

There's another change that just came to my memory: We were previously using a 30 watt Harman Kardon receiver to power the speakers. I bought the receiver and speakers new, as a package. I distinctly remember the problem starting when we switched to using a vintage Sansui. It produced so much more bass than the HK, we were pleasantly surprised but unaware that the extra bass would cause a problem with the horns. My son's still using a Sansui 9090DB that was professionally restored. (On some songs, the bass from the CF-3s literally shakes the whole apartment.)

Bracing is not an option for several reasons. The first is that I'm living in an apartment with no work space or tools. And In complete honesty, my woodworking skills are.. well..nonexistent.

This isn't relevant, but I'm curious about the Harbeths you mentioned. Let's just say I'm very familiar with them. They have the sweetest, laid back sound I've ever heard. Why would anyone want to bi-amp them? In fact, they're known for playing well with just about any power source. (Although an acquaintance who writes audio reviews professionally, told me that they sound their best with amplifiers that have a built in DAC based on the ICEPower 125ASX2 module, like the Bel Canto integrateds.)