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Really want to save the planet? GET OFF IT!


Mallette

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The concept of moving faster than the speed of light has been kicked around for some time now ,,At Cambrige and a few other places...light can be measured as a wavelength and a massless particle (photon) as well as the measure of masless gravity (graveton) Yes very brief expieriments have been done....But we would have to leave our bodies behind to succeed for our selves. Sorry about some of my missspellings (SON SUN)

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But we would have to leave our bodies behind to succeed for our selves.

===========

For some of us, that would be just fine. Download me into a slab of silicon....

Now you're talking about Cordwainer Smith and "The Dead Lady of Clowntown."

In the mid to late 1950s, a man wealthy from the real estate business had an idea for a drive system. He built models and got patents on it. My brother and a friend of his got the patent drawings, intending to work up a science fair project. That fell through, until a few short years later when they talked about it again. Gosh, they had lost the papers in the mean time... so they sent of to the patent office for the papers one more time. They got a notice back that the papers weren't available as they had been classified.

Hehehe... the basic premise was easy (most things are), but it was a very mechanical device, and would have been subject to enormous stress and vibration. However, it could still prove useful. The author posited that we could have gone to the moon by the late 1950s. He calculated he could have a vehicle the size of a Jeep reach zero gravity very easily. I have always wanted to build a small model of his design and try it out, just for grins.

I had searched for a long time to find info about it again. While writing this, I remembered the designer's name and did a search. A link follows, and the probability that it didn't work. It was fun anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_drive

People have good ideas all the time, great ideas even. We still need the WILL to do what needs to be done. I, for one, don't think Dave's idea of population control is a good one (for various reasons), and this planet can support a lot more people than we currently have. I find it ironic that the mojaority of people who have few children to no children, are the more educated ones. They kill off their own gene pool, so to speak, committing scientific/intellectual suicide, while the masses keep growing. That is a whole other topic, and the science is enough to keep this thread going. This is, at the very least, a really good read.

Bruce

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>I, for one, don't think Dave's idea of population control is a good one
(for various reasons), and this planet can support a lot more people
than we currently have.

I had an idea for population control? Please remind me as I do not recall same. Part of my hypothesis is to eliminate the NEED for population control. The only reason for population control in an infinite universe is failure to recognize that fact and take the steps required to avoid it. I fully agree the planet can support a lot more...just not endlessly more.

Well, got to turn in so I can train the roughnecks to keep drilling those last few drops of oil to keep your SUV's going and the lamps lit... Looking forward to following that link tomorrow, Bruce, though I do not expect to be any more amazed than by some other things to which I've been exposed. Right now, it is good night and peace to all you wonderful folks.

Dave

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(more of a paraphrase as the editor has left me on my work computer)
... I find it ironic that the majority of people who have few children to no children, are the more educated ones. They kill off their own gene pool, so to speak, committing scientific/intellectual suicide, while the masses keep growing. ...


More for a whole other topic....



A few years ago when my wife managed a discount women's clothing store, the goal of one of her employee's was to have a baby, like her sister, so she could get on welfare to stay at home to take care of the baby ...



working in day care she also encountered people with children who couldn't afford to work as the low paying jobs they could get required they pay child care and these people at least trying found they were better off no working...



The welfare system, at the time - it's probably no better now, rewarded those who didn't want to work and penalized those who wanted to try and get ahead and make it on their own...



Maybe the more educated people understand better what it takes to raise a child as they think it should be raised?



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...
About all I really doubt is whether science can ever crack one problem PWK posed to me years ago when I asked him if he thought it possible to build a smaller K'horn with the same specs. He responded "Sure...as soon as someone figures out how to make a 32hz waveform smaller."

Anyone working on THAT one? ...




can't wait to see that thread


Mdeenen in another post in this thread commented on SLOWING and ADVANCING the speed of light ... well if you can slow down and speed up light .... maybe acoustic wavelengths? Or the extreem controlled directivity (or whatever it's called) where sounds I think are outside the range of human hearing are aimed to intersect so that the sound is heard in a small area (bet that'd drive any nearby dogs crazy) which I believe is being used in walkthough types of displays... maybe that can somehow be used for bass frequencies?

The Kurzweil AI site. I wonder what they've been up to lately ... I seem to recall that Mr Kurzweil (or one of the principles) met Stevie Wonder due to the speech synthesis and then developed a keyboard that sounded like a concert grand to me (and at least a lot closer to people who really know what a concert grand sounds like) my reaction the first time I heard one being used ... where's the grand piano? at a concert where they started playing and then opened the curtain

very fascinating stuff here - I'll have to follow some of these links when I have time to make my head spin


Visited the Wright Brothers' national monument this past July... can you imagine the look on the faces and feeling of I can't believe it but I'm seeing it the locals assisting Orville and Wilbur must've had? They had a bronze sculpture including the gentlemen that took the photo of the first flight ... imagine what was going through his mind...


Yes, "That is not possible" is one of the silliest phrase in the English language ... Imagine where we'd be if everybody listened to that and just gave up.... Thankfully a few are crazy enough to say, maybe I can't do it, but I'm going to try anyway ...

(sorry so the rambling 0.002 cents ... apparently it's past my bedtime...


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This thread has taken an interesting direction. As I see it I would conclude that the best chance of being able to blast off to see the stars would be as digital entities shed enitrely of our bodies. This would mean huge savings in life support requirements and probably reduce the needs for shielding from all the nasty bits of radiation out there that our bodies are just not able to deal with.

Further - with a digital existance the engines themselves could be a lot less "clean" without undue problems.

This is probably a good time to start getting into MOG's - I have never played with them - but hell - these could turn out to be our future.....

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I woud be less inclined to see the "STARS" after all a see a huge one every morning and its setting in the evening.. Thats about as close as I want to get. This planet makes a great space ship...I dont have to feel cramped up inside...I can step outside and breath the fresh atmosphere. Enjoy the birds,, eagles and deer from my deck overlooking the lake,,,,,WHAT A BEAUTIFUL SPACESHIP with The Mahler Ressurection Symphony from my audio system rolling over the waters. What a beautiful site.

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Entire corporate network was down after 9am this morning and will be for a while. It's in downtown Tulsa. Power has been off for 2 days and the backup power supplies are exhausted. We have an emergency command post...located about 20 blocks away. Now, THERE's some forward thinking.

It's the unthinkable that always catches us.

In spite of the mind opening input I recieved from this thread, I think I will proceed with my orginal plan. There are separate realities. Which one is real? In this case, since my target audience is Joe and Jill Average Newspaper Reader, I'll stick with the original hypothesis.

Perhaps the end result will be some synthesis of all the possible outcomes.

Dave

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>I, for one, don't think Dave's idea of population control is a good one (for various reasons), and this planet can support a lot more people than we currently have.

I had an idea for population control? Please remind me as I do not recall same. Part of my hypothesis is to eliminate the NEED for population control. The only reason for population control in an infinite universe is failure to recognize that fact and take the steps required to avoid it. I fully agree the planet can support a lot more...just not endlessly more.

Well, got to turn in so I can train the roughnecks to keep drilling those last few drops of oil to keep your SUV's going and the lamps lit... Looking forward to following that link tomorrow, Bruce, though I do not expect to be any more amazed than by some other things to which I've been exposed. Right now, it is good night and peace to all you wonderful folks.

Dave

Actually, it was Max who hinted at, and you filled in the blanks a bit.

>At the moment humans are breeding faster than they are dying off.
At what point are CERTAIN this will change? Without that certainty, all you have done is restate one of my premises.

>This could be reversed by any number of actions - although the social impact would take some getting used to.
Indeed it could. Forced sterilization, mass extermination, biological re-engineering, etc. WWII suggests these remedies do indeed take a bit of getting used to. Any thoughts on others that might pass congress or the UN?

And I still drive an SUV sometimes( 20 mpg, though), but much less as I have my late wife's car, which gets a better 29-30 mpg.

Bruce

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Beware of making morality judgements for different eras. Just compare our morality to that of the turn of the last century - or even the 1950's. If we get to the point that the world population is double or triple the current level I would think all bets are off as to what might be considered acceptable or otherwise. Also bear in mind that they will almost certainly look back at our times in horror at our morality just as we do for slave owners, witch burners etc. etc.

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As this thread sinks slowly towards the bottom of the page for a well-deserved rest, I'd like to thank all the participants for their considered responses. As pointed out by several, it's been quite a balanced and civil exchange. That's the best kind...

I have saved the entire thread offline and when I have the time will write the op ed I referenced. Of course, no guarantees it will be published but my track record is pretty good over the years on subjects for which I have real passion and research carefully.

You guys have done that for me.

For those on the "fix it" side and let's all stay here huddled by the fire, I find nothing to alter my position no matter how hard I try to bias my logic.

Now, I was exposed to some things in and out of the thread that could make the entire premise moot, but if I return to just the absolutely scientifically demonstrated I am still stuck with the premise. The other things simply wouldn't get me anything from the editors but a pat on the head and some recommendations for treatment.

So, we need to:

1. Clean up our act and conserve our resources.

2. Begin to make ready for the sure and certain time that "1" will not be enough.

So let it be written, so let it be done!

Kind regards and a very merry Christmas to all (and Kwanza, and Hannukah, and Winter Solstice, or whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside),

Dave

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A former student at the college where I work told me one time, after dicussing different theological views, that we could all be wrong...

... but we can't all be right. Then again, we may all be right in part. The hard thing is finding all the right parts.

Keep up the good work, Dave. Once you get it written, if it gets published, let us all get a chance to read it. And post any responses you may get.

Bruce

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