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La Scala Bass Mod - again


Marvel
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37 minutes ago, Marvel said:

I want to hear what the results are from the ported boxes. He already has those done, other than staining/finishing.

 

I don't understand the stigma that has been placed on the LaScala bass modification or so it seems. I believe the LS bass mod is similar to Claude's ported Heresy mod (you are taking a sealed enclosure and modifying it into a ported enclosure). I think all would agree the Heresy port mod is great and definitely worth persuing. Klipsch even moved the Heresy IV to a ported enclosure. I have not forgot that the original inspiration for the ported Heresy mod was for better midrange clarity and the bass extension was just a bonus. 

 

On the other hand, there are other designs out there worth persuing if you want bass extension, however, for someone who does not want to build an enclosure or just does not have the space, the ported LS mod is an option.

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33 minutes ago, Marvel said:

Dennis said the boost should be around the 31-31hz mark.

 

I tried 30Hz to 40Hz (with two 4" ports, 7" long) and 40Hz sounded the best to me. Nice tight punch. Less than 40Hz started to sound flabby and uncontrolled. 

 

For reference, my LaScala's are 1974 with the open back and dog house panel up top under the K400.

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On 10/16/2021 at 1:56 PM, BeFuddledinMn said:

I always appreciated Dennis (RIP), his stellar contributions to this forum, and his effortless intellect. His LaScala mod (and associated tutorial) was and is brilliant in my opinion. Of course, like all of the possibilities with speakers, unique needs usually dictate best course. Having said that, I’d love to see full frequency response and distortion measurements across a Klipsch LS5 LaScala, a DJK modified LaScala and Claude’s impressive quarter pie. We can all add a subwoofer later - or buy the new Klipsch Jubilee, but I’m guessing there is a sizeable crowd that doesn’t find that convenient, for whatever reason.

If all y'all would think in RELATIVE terms, with TIME STAMPS, you would realize that my "half baked" (maybe I should have said OBSOLETE?) comment was not meant to smear the memory of the late DJK, whose knowledge and skills respected and still do.

 

In 16 years since he outlined his mod on this forum, so many excellent SUBwoofer Drivers have been developed, along with HornResp software. This allowed the DIY community to come up with some really good designs that OUTPERFORM the LS Mod spoken of here. Also, for a lousy $15, you could buy plans from Bill Fizmaurice or get F-20 plans for free.

 

In principle, the LS BR Mod is similar to the METHOD used by Altec with their Voice of the Theater system combining a short horn with bass reflex from the same driver (1940's and 1950's Speaker Tech. had a 3 decade run). While this method has a great place in the history books, ALL modern Theaters use SUBWOOFERS for the Modern Super LOW BASS in Music and Movies. Both in Commercial Theaters (IMAX, Dolby, THX, etc.).

 

Since 1983, CD's could reproduce BASS as low a 4 Hz., while HT Recordings and Sony SACD with 5.1 Mix have had a separated Low Freqency Channel SPECIFICALLY for subwoofers for over 20 years now.

 

So I ask, what more logical reasoning and fact based opinions do you want from me? After all, I'm just another keyboard here on this forum.

 

So, from a "been there, done that" and moved up in quality bass with horn subs, I put my money and time where my mouth is. I was just to save you guys some time in coming up with the same conclusion and moving up to the top of the pile of Low Bass solutions from the get go and not WASTE time or money for "good enough" on for the "low bar," pun intended.

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1 hour ago, Curious_George said:

 

I tried 30Hz to 40Hz (with two 4" ports, 7" long) and 40Hz sounded the best to me. Nice tight punch. Less than 40Hz started to sound flabby and uncontrolled. 

 

For reference, my LaScala's are 1974 with the open back and dog house panel up top under the K400.

All good. But it's NOT Sub bass performance, and from a Bass Reflex Point of view, it's not as good as a Cornwall of any year for the past 60 years. Yes it's an improvement, but I'm pretty sure eve Klipsch would rather sell you a pair of subs rather than dink around with this as an "improvement."

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4 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

All good. But it's NOT Sub bass performance, and from a Bass Reflex Point of view, it's not as good as a Cornwall of any year for the past 60 years. Yes it's an improvement, but I'm pretty sure eve Klipsch would rather sell you a pair of subs rather than dink around with this as an "improvement."

 

I agree. Voxx needs as many sales as possible.

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54 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

If all y'all would think in RELATIVE terms, with TIME STAMPS, you would realize that my "half baked" (maybe I should have said OBSOLETE?) comment was not meant to smear the memory of the late DJK, whose knowledge and skills respected and still do.

 

In 16 years since he outlined his mod on this forum, so many excellent SUBwoofer Drivers have been developed, along with HornResp software. This allowed the DIY community to come up with some really good designs that OUTPERFORM the LS Mod spoken of here. Also, for a lousy $15, you could buy plans from Bill Fizmaurice or get F-20 plans for free.

 

In principle, the LS BR Mod is similar to the METHOD used by Altec with their Voice of the Theater system combining a short horn with bass reflex from the same driver (1940's and 1950's Speaker Tech. had a 3 decade run). While this method has a great place in the history books, ALL modern Theaters use SUBWOOFERS for the Modern Super LOW BASS in Music and Movies. Both in Commercial Theaters (IMAX, Dolby, THX, etc.).

 

Since 1983, CD's could reproduce BASS as low a 4 Hz., while HT Recordings and Sony SACD with 5.1 Mix have had a separated Low Freqency Channel SPECIFICALLY for subwoofers for over 20 years now.

 

So I ask, what more logical reasoning and fact based opinions do you want from me? After all, I'm just another keyboard here on this forum.

 

So, from a "been there, done that" and moved up in quality bass with horn subs, I put my money and time where my mouth is. I was just to save you guys some time in coming up with the same conclusion and moving up to the top of the pile of Low Bass solutions from the get go and not WASTE time or money for "good enough" on for the "low bar," pun intended.

Claude, I fully understand what you are saying, but not everyone desires, wants or needs the latest and greatest. People love classic cars, even though a new Toyota Camry could probably blows the doors of some classic "muscle" cars in stock form. I could use a hundred analogies, but you get the point.

 

A lot of people jump right into new technology, some are a bit slower (like me), but overall moving forward is the best option (in most cases it is not an option) unless you want to go the way of the dinosaurs. 

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2 hours ago, Curious_George said:

Claude, I fully understand what you are saying, but not everyone desires, wants or needs the latest and greatest. People love classic cars, even though a new Toyota Camry could probably blows the doors of some classic "muscle" cars in stock form. I could use a hundred analogies, but you get the point.

 

A lot of people jump right into new technology, some are a bit slower (like me), but overall moving forward is the best option (in most cases it is not an option) unless you want to go the way of the dinosaurs. 

From a nostalgia "classic cars" perspective, I agree with your statement. One of my best friends has his original '64 Corvette as "garage jewelry" and won't sell it because of emotional connection to the car. But his new C8 Corvette (a road spaceship IMHO) blows it away in looks, performance, and electronics technology and he actually drives it.

 

Some people are paying $12,000 for 60 years old Altec A7's with worn out capacitors and whatever shape the diaphragms might be. I have heard them in a local small theater with no subs and they sound like crap compared to modern Klipsch Theater stuff. I'm also sure that all the speakers in the Klipsch Museum would produce sound, but would not necessarily want to own them and play them in my house.

 

Some people like Garage Jewelry and some people want the best speaker performance married to the latest electronics technology has to offer. Everyone is free to do whatever their little heart or wallet desires. You already know which camp I'm in. 

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23 hours ago, Curious_George said:

Claude, I fully understand what you are saying, but not everyone desires, wants or needs the latest and greatest. People love classic cars, even though a new Toyota Camry could probably blows the doors of some classic "muscle" cars in stock form. I could use a hundred analogies, but you get the point.

 

A lot of people jump right into new technology, some are a bit slower (like me), but overall moving forward is the best option (in most cases it is not an option) unless you want to go the way of the dinosaurs. 

Now it is the moving forward part of your comment I find interesting. Having been one of those incremental moving forward types slowly rising up in sound quality I spent a lot of money and time to figure out that what Claude is advising you is true. Most of us seem to want to go this way and only in retrospect see the time and money wasted on results that still left us hungry for better.

 

 I guess my best La Scala was a one piece fiberglass covered with trim LSI sitting on top of a set of KP-480 pretend subs. Awesome sounding set and much better then that mod you are contemplating but still was missing notes from 5 string bass and lower pipe organ notes. You see in my case it had nothing to do with "modern movies" or blowing doors off. What it had to do with was missing the intent of those who composed the music and they put those low notes in there for a reason.

 

  Many are happy with speakers that never come close to fairly common low notes in music and it is hard to miss what you may never have heard and don't even know you are missing.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Dave A said:

Many are happy with speakers that never come close to fairly common low notes in music and it is hard to miss what you may never have heard and don't even know you are missing.

Ah, a voice of reason.....

 

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1 hour ago, Dave A said:

Now it is the moving forward part of your comment I find interesting. Having been one of those incremental moving forward types slowly rising up in sound quality I spent a lot of money and time to figure out that what Claude is advising you is true. Most of us seem to want to go this way and only in retrospect see the time and money wasted on results that still left us hungry for better.

 

 I guess my best La Scala was a one piece fiberglass covered with trim LSI sitting on top of a set of KP-480 pretend subs. Awesome sounding set and much better then that mod you are contemplating but still was missing notes from 5 string bass and lower pipe organ notes. You see in my case it had nothing to do with "modern movies" or blowing doors off. What it had to do with was missing the intent of those who composed the music and they put those low notes in there for a reason.

 

  Many are happy with speakers that never come close to fairly common low notes in music and it is hard to miss what you may never have heard and don't even know you are missing.

 

 

 

If I have given the impression I am against or do not desire a subwoofer, that is not the case.

 

I started in the early 80's working in the car audio industry when it was in its infancy. Even though home audio was mature, nobody wanted to help or offer knowledge to the "car guys" because they thought we were nuts for wanting to put 10" and 12" woofers in the back deck or trunk of a car. T/S parameters were not known and a TRS80 or Commodore 64 computer sure wasn't going to spit them out. I spent many years building car audio systems that had extremely low (and loud) bass. It's actually easier in a vehicle with its small cabin and gain characteristics. 

 

Currently, I am contemplating my next subwoofer solution for my new basement layout. 

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2 hours ago, Dave A said:

I guess my best La Scala was a one piece fiberglass covered with trim LSI sitting on top of a set of KP-480 pretend subs.

 

Can you clarify this statement? You had your LaScala's sitting on top of the KP-480? 

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6 minutes ago, Curious_George said:

 

they need more sales. 

klipsch Heritage  Subwoofers  designed specifically for the Heritage Series with  matched veneer finish  , would sell like hotcakes -

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12 hours ago, Curious_George said:

 

Can you clarify this statement? You had your LaScala's sitting on top of the KP-480? 

Yes they were meant to be stackable with each other. KP-480 footprint is 23.875" wide and 24" deep. The LSI was 24" wide and 24.75" deep. Best LSI or La Scala setup I have ever had.

KP-480.pdf

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