Klipsch CF 3 Report - Making Epic Series Speakers Sound Better

[ka7niq]

The Klipsch Epic Series speakers were Klipsch's attempt at a "high end" sound.

There are several models in the Epic Series, the CF 2, an dual 8" with a Horn, the CF 3 - A dual 10" speaker with a horn in the center, and the CF 4, a dual 12" with a horn.

The cone drivers are of very high quality, and use Neodym Magnets.

The compression driver has a 2" throat, and also uses Neo Magnets in the CF 3 and CF 4.

The CF 2 uses a phenolic diaphragm compression driver, not sure of it's magnets.

The CF 3 and CF 4 use an aluminum dome compression driver with Neodym magnets coupled to a Tractrix horn centered between the cone drivers.

The crossover provides for easy bi wiring AND Passive Biamp, more on that later.

The Epic series did not sell very well, and was not well received by the Klipsch dealers.

It did not have that typical Klipsch sound {Thank God}, and was not as efficient as other Klipsch speakers.

Being a quasi D'Appolito type array meant you had to sit down to really hear it, unlike the other Klipsch speakers that sounded "good" standing up.

As a result of the dealers slow sales of the Epic Series, Klipsch Marketing Salesmen demanded a re design of the speaker.

The re design was called series 2, and this is what they did to the speakers.

Port tuning was raised by using 3 inch ports instead of the originals 6 inch ports, and a crossover change was also done.

The Epic series 3 speakers had a lighter woofer for even more efficiency, but with a huge loss of sound quality.

Many of you will probably want to try a pair of these marvelous speakers after reading this review, just stay away from the series 3's.

The series ones are the most desirable, series two second.

Series two can ALMOST be "restored" to series one performance by simply pulling the old 3 inch ports out, and replacing with 6 inch ports{They pull right out, easily}

In stock form, the Horn runs too hot.

These crossover to the Horn driver at around 1000 hz.

Unless you place these on a wall or almost in a corner, the horn overwhelms the other drivers.

And once on a wall, kiss your imaging bye bye too.

Even on a wall/corner, the horns level is still too hot, making the speaker ruthless of equipment/source.

The solution ?

Remove the metal jumpers on the back of the speaker, and use two amps, and one MUST have level controls.

Use one amp to power the woofers, and one to power the horn.

About amplifiers, these seem to like high current big solid state amps best.

Currently, I am using a GVD Audio on the woofers, and a little Parasound HCA 500 on the horn.

My preamp is a Tube Dared with used GE NOS 12AT7 tubes I got from Jim McShane.

I am using dual runs of Radio Shack flat speaker wire that Albert Von Schweikert turned me on to.

These speakers are SUPER amp critical like many horns.

That first 10 watts gotta be clean, or you will hear it.

The GVD Audio P6500 has been a total surprise.

It is a "pro sound" type amp with balanced connectors and cooling fans instead of heat sinks.

My tech looked inside it, and flipped out. He said "This amp is a current mirror".

I said WTF is a current mirror ?

He told me it is an advanced amp design that cancels out distortion and allows for lower feedback.

Ho hum, but HOW does it SOUND ? In this case, excellent.

I have another GVD Audio p 6500 amp, but it sounds so good the way I have it, I am afraid to touch anything.

I have B&W matrix 801's, they are my reference.

Do the CF 3's sound like the Matrix 801's, not quite, but when I listen to the CF 3's, I dont miss my 801's.

Does that make any sense ?

The CF 3's are imaging Mo Fo's, and will cast a 3d sound field in a heartbeat.

Do NOT "assume" a big box will not image.

Imaging is very very good, almost single driver like.

MAYBE it is because the 10 inch drivers are both in operation up to 1K and are becoming directional like a single driver speaker would ?

The CF 3 also has a coherence about it, once the level on the horn is reduced.

BTW,, once you are passively bi amped, you simply adjust the level of the amp that has level controls. You want to reduce the horns level relative to its woofers.

Once you get it adjusted, you can also make "settings" on the amps level controls.

We all know a bright speaker can sound great on the best recordings, but sound like shit on all else. The CF 3's, used in passive bi amp mode with level adjustment will allow you to have both an

impress your audio buddies with detail speaker, and a speaker you can listen to ANYTHING on, all by simply turning a level control 6 clicks each way.

Hey, I listen to audiophile stuff, sure, but I like Rock like Styx and REO and Scandal and Rick Springfield.

I also like Tom Petty and Judas Priest and AC/ DC and Mary Chapin Carpenter and Dixie Chicks.

The CF 3 will get "audiophile's", not QUITE like a Matrix 801, but few speakers will.

In the last 4 years, I have went through many sets of speakers.

VMPS RM 40's, Magnepan MG 3A's, Von Schweikert VR 4 Jr's, Magnepan SMGA's and Polk SRS 2's among others.

All are gone except the Big Polks, only because I have gotten around to selling them.

I kept my Matrix 801's.

But the Matrix 801's just can't REALLY Rock like the CF 3's can.

If anyone remembers Inmate Layman, he used to talk of a "warmth curve" some designers built into speakers.

This is a gradually sloping response from around 1K downward to 20K.

Maybe because the crossover point in the CF 3 is around 1K what the level adjustment of the amps is doing is simulating a warmth curve.

Whatever - all I know is I can listen to ANYTHING, and easily make it sound good.

It is amazing that Cd's we THOUGHT were "bad recordings" really are not that bad at all.

Many of our so called "high end" speakers are little more then thin, bright speakers, tone controls we cant turn off.

We give up on music we WANTED to listen to, and now only listen to audiophile stuff.

Screw that, I want it ALL, and the CF 3, set up with amps it likes, comes pretty darn close to giving you what you want in a speaker.

The BEST part of this whole review I saved for last.

There are plenty of CF 3's and CF 4's around for under a grand.

I bought my CF 3's version ones for 800.00, but version 2's go for around 600.00.

Did they make me Tap My Toes ? No, I got up and started "conducting"

They have a rich, full lower midrange, singers have chests, guitars have Body, Piano's have weight.

Yes, they are a LITTLE colored, but in a musical way.

They lack the extreme highs of the B&W Matrix 801 tweeter, but that is nitpicking.

And the 801 has a better midrange, but you would be surprised how close the CF 3 comes to the 801.

I was listening to Blackmore's Night, and the strings and trumpets were faithfully reproduced by the 801 and the CF 3.

On Rock, it is no contest, the CF 3 kicks the 801's ***.

If you like Rock, you will LOVE the Klipsch CF 3.

My review only applies to a CF 3 run as I describe.

A stock, non passively biamped CF 3 is hard to get sounding right

---

Product Weakness:	Extreme Highs not as good as best, amp fussy, big, need careful placement to sound best.
Product Strengths:	Powerful, efficient, musical, great imaging, low distortion, can be easily adjusted to be forgiving/Detailed/Transparent/Musical

---

[Mike Lindsey]

It was very difficult to read your revierw so I have redone it below. BTW, I had a pair of CF-2's that I bought new in 96 that I enjoyed very much.

Mike

The Klipsch Epic Series speakers were Klipsch's attempt at a "high end" sound. There are several models in the Epic Series, the CF 2, an dual 8" with a Horn, the CF 3 - A dual 10" speaker with a horn in the center, and the CF 4, a dual 12" with a horn. The cone drivers are of very high quality, and use Neodym Magnets. The compression driver has a 2" throat, and also uses Neo Magnets in the CF 3 and CF 4. The CF 2 uses a phenolic diaphragm compression driver, not sure of it's magnets. The CF 3 and CF 4 use an aluminum dome compression driver with Neodym magnets coupled to a Tractrix horn centered between the cone drivers. The crossover provides for easy bi wiring AND Passive Biamp, more on that later.

The Epic series did not sell very well, and was not well received by the Klipsch dealers. It did not have that typical Klipsch sound {Thank God}, and was not as efficient as other Klipsch speakers. Being a quasi D'Appolito type array meant you had to sit down to really hear it, unlike the other Klipsch speakers that sounded "good" standing up. As a result of the dealers slow sales of the Epic Series, Klipsch Marketing Salesmen demanded a re design of the speaker. The re design was called series 2, and this is what they did to the speakers:

Port tuning was raised by using 3 inch ports instead of the originals 6 inch ports, and a crossover change was also done. The Epic series 3 speakers had a lighter woofer for even more efficiency, but with a huge loss of sound quality. Many of you will probably want to try a pair of these marvelous speakers after reading this review, just stay away from the series 3's.

The series ones are the most desirable, series two second. Series two can ALMOST be "restored" to series one performance by simply pulling the old 3 inch ports out, and replacing with 6 inch ports{They pull right out, easily} In stock form, the Horn runs too hot. These crossover to the Horn driver at around 1000 hz.

Unless you place these on a wall or almost in a corner, the horn overwhelms the other drivers. And once on a wall, kiss your imaging bye bye too. Even on a wall/corner, the horns level is still too hot, making the speaker ruthless of equipment/source. The solution ? Remove the metal jumpers on the back of the speaker, and use two amps, and one MUST have level controls.

Use one amp to power the woofers, and one to power the horn. About amplifiers, these seem to like high current big solid state amps best. Currently, I am using a GVD Audio on the woofers, and a little Parasound HCA 500 on the horn. My preamp is a Tube Dared with used GE NOS 12AT7 tubes I got from Jim McShane. I am using dual runs of Radio Shack flat speaker wire that Albert Von Schweikert turned me on to.

These speakers are SUPER amp critical like many horns. That first 10 watts gotta be clean, or you will hear it. The GVD Audio P6500 has been a total surprise. It is a "pro sound" type amp with balanced connectors and cooling fans instead of heat sinks. My tech looked inside it, and flipped out. He said "This amp is a current mirror". I said WTF is a current mirror ? He told me it is an advanced amp design that cancels out distortion and allows for lower feedback. Ho hum, but HOW does it SOUND ? In this case, excellent.

I have another GVD Audio p 6500 amp, but it sounds so good the way I have it, I am afraid to touch anything. I have B&W matrix 801's, they are my reference. Do the CF 3's sound like the Matrix 801's, not quite, but when I listen to the CF 3's, I dont miss my 801's. Does that make any sense ?

The CF 3's are imaging Mo Fo's, and will cast a 3d sound field in a heartbeat. Do NOT "assume" a big box will not image. Imaging is very very good, almost single driver like. MAYBE it is because the 10 inch drivers are both in operation up to 1K and are becoming directional like a single driver speaker would ?

The CF 3 also has a coherence about it, once the level on the horn is reduced. BTW, once you are passively bi amped, you simply adjust the level of the amp that has level controls. You want to reduce the horns level relative to its woofers. Once you get it adjusted, you can also make "settings" on the amps level controls.

We all know a bright speaker can sound great on the best recordings, but sound like *** on all else. The CF 3's, used in passive bi amp mode with level adjustment will allow you to have both an impress your audio buddies with detail speaker, and a speaker you can listen to ANYTHING on, all by simply turning a level control 6 clicks each way.

Hey, I listen to audiophile stuff, sure, but I like Rock like Styx and REO and Scandal and Rick Springfield. I also like Tom Petty and Judas Priest and AC/ DC and Mary Chapin Carpenter and Dixie Chicks. The CF 3 will get "audiophile's", not QUITE like a Matrix 801, but few speakers will.

In the last 4 years, I have went through many sets of speakers. VMPS RM 40's, Magnepan MG 3A's, Von Schweikert VR 4 Jr's, Magnepan SMGA's and Polk SRS 2's among others. All are gone except the Big Polks, only because I have gotten around to selling them. I kept my Matrix 801's. But the Matrix 801's just can't REALLY Rock like the CF 3's can.

If anyone remembers Inmate Layman, he used to talk of a "warmth curve" some designers built into speakers. This is a gradually sloping response from around 1K downward to 20K. Maybe because the crossover point in the CF 3 is around 1K what the level adjustment of the amps is doing is simulating a warmth curve. Whatever - all I know is I can listen to ANYTHING, and easily make it sound good.

It is amazing that Cd's we THOUGHT were "bad recordings" really are not that bad at all. Many of our so called "high end" speakers are little more then thin, bright speakers, tone controls we cant turn off. We give up on music we WANTED to listen to, and now only listen to audiophile stuff. Screw that, I want it ALL, and the CF 3, set up with amps it likes, comes pretty darn close to giving you what you want in a speaker.

The BEST part of this whole review I saved for last. There are plenty of CF 3's and CF 4's around for under a grand. I bought my CF 3's version ones for 800.00, but version 2's go for around 600.00. Did they make me Tap My Toes ? No, I got up and started "conducting" They have a rich, full lower midrange, singers have chests, guitars have Body, Piano's have weight. Yes, they are a LITTLE colored, but in a musical way.They lack the extreme highs of the B&W Matrix 801 tweeter, but that is nitpicking. And the 801 has a better midrange, but you would be surprised how close the CF 3 comes to the 801.

I was listening to Blackmore's Night, and the strings and trumpets were faithfully reproduced by the 801 and the CF 3. On Rock, it is no contest, the CF 3 kicks the 801's ***. If you like Rock, you will LOVE the Klipsch CF 3. My review only applies to a CF 3 run as I describe.A stock, non passively biamped CF 3 is hard to get sounding right

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Product Weakness: Extreme Highs not as good as best, amp fussy, big, need careful placement to sound best.

Product Strengths: Powerful, efficient, musical, great imaging, low distortion, can be easily adjusted to be forgiving/Detailed/Transparent/Musical

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amp- Moscode 600
Custom Tube Line Stage
B&W Matrix 801's Von Schweikert VR 4 JR's
TEAC Digital amp
Oracle Turntable w/ Itok arm Koetsu
Onyx JVC DVD CD Player w/ Lite Dac 72 Tube Dac
Audioquest GR 8 Vampire interconnects, etc
www.saferoofcleaning.com

[ka7niq]

Thanks Mike, it was 2.30 am when I wrote the review.

I posted it on Speaker Asylum, and cut and pasted it here.

It is a LOT easier to read, now that you re did it for me!

I have never had a CF 2 in my home, but I know it used a phenolic vs an aluminum dome compression driver, and not sure if it had a Neo magnet like it's bigger brothers ?

[DCloud]

I have just purchased some cf4s v2 The horn is way loud I am running a h/k avr 745 and am interested in biamping these to tone down the horn They image like no other speakers I have heard What amp would you suggest I use for passively biamping the horn Do you think the h/k will go good with these speakers It liked my ksf10.5s I am running a 5.2 set up now for the ht but love to listen to rock ... and loud They are great for the ht but my ksf10.5s were better for the music I would like to have these work in my set up They are an awsome looking speaker w super nice walnut cabs I also managed to grab a kv4 at the same time hope you can help I really don't want to resell these Paid 900.00 for them whick is a little on the high side for V2 but they are hard to find period these days does Bob crites do crossovers for cf4s

Thanks, Dave

[oldmako]

Bob Crites did my CF3 crossovers a few months ago. Fantastic workmanship and service at a very fair price. They sound great.

[ka7niq]

I had good luck with just about any pair of amps, as long as one amp has level controls.

Run the bass amp "wide open" and simply reduce the level of the tweeter/midrange Horn amp.

This is in a passive bi amp set up, for those wondering.

[DCloud]

thanks for the response How much did Bob charge for the Xovers I really like the imaging of the cf4 but the horn is way to loud did he modify the crossover were your horns over powered as well what version were your cf3s I have version 2 Cf4s do you have yours biamped if so are you using a passive setup or active Xover I listen to alot of rock but like some old school stuff like the doors and they really sounded good on my ksf10.5's but sound like s*** on the cf4s just woundering which way would be better and more cost effective sent the Xovers or passive biamp to control the horn how much power do you have running to yours I have read on the fourms that these like the juice I am running out of cash and I like the Avr745 h/k I am running now Do you have Bob's email maybe I could ask him on this I wish I could hear V1 to see what they are like I don't want to put more money in this setup and find they don't still sound good then I would end up prating the cf4's out since that's the only way I could get my money back The divers are no longer avalible and are higly desired However I am not ready to do this yet Any help is greatly appreciated!! thanks Dave

[DCloud]

Thanks for the resonse How much power do you have running to yours By level controls meaning just base and trebel controls Any idea on cost for this set up I was also considering sending the Xovers to Bob Crites and going that route and using my existing h/k avr745 Any thoughts on that idea Thanks Dave

[ka7niq]

Level controls do not mean bass/treble controls.

[oldmako]

I'd rather not say what I paid to have them done, due to the fact that I got a bit of a deal. I was originally looking for a pair of replacement tweeters and sent Bob a check. I then determined that my tweets were fine, but my X-overs bad. Bob suggested that I send him mine and he'd take a look. They needed significant work and he and his son did a fantastic job. I suspect that he ate a bit of the cost. I highly recommend the mod, and using Crites to have the work done. I will send him my Forte crossovers in the future.

I am abusing them with an old Phase Linear 400 which has rougly 200 wpc. I'm a troglodite and like the old 2 channel stuff. Plus, it's all that I can afford. They sound much better than they did when I was using a Pioneer SX 9100 (80 watts I think). And much better than when I had them hooked up to a fairly pricy Sony HT receiver. I have regular old, got em from my Mom, original equipment ears. There is one on each side of my head. They have never been calibrated, tweaked, upgraded or scored for audiophile accuracy. They have listened to some fairly ordinary gear by the standards on this site, but occasionally I have heard some high end $$$$$ stuff with them. I LOVE the sound of my CF3s. IOW, my old stuff works for me. Good luck.

[ka7niq]

WHAT ????

CF 3's dont have tweeters, they have a compression driver with a titanium diapragm, and if it blows, better cash in some stocks ?

Does Crites offer new compression drivers now for the CF 3's ?

Did you send the whole speakers, or pull the crossovers and send just them ?

What kind of Mod did Crites do ?

The CF speakers already have Mylar Caps in them, did he replace them with Polys or something ?

tell us more details ???

[oldmako]

Tweeters, Compression Drivers, ToeMAYtoes, ToeMAHtoes........

Clearly you are well versed and I am completely ignernt on this stuff. When I refer to the CF 3 page on the Kilpsch site, it says... "Tweeter K-63-KN 2 inch (5.08cm) Aluminum diaphragm compression driver" I figured that my shortened nomenclature would effectively convey my meaning.

He rebuilt my crossovers. My K-63-KN 2" (5.08cm) Aluminum diaphragm compression drivers were fine. The crossovers now have all new capacitors, wiring etc. I know what a soldering iron looks like, and that the end opposite the plug gets really really hot. Beyond that I don't know much and can't comment on what he did. They are far beefier now than they were when I boxed them up and sent them off. In fact, they look so nice, I almost wish they were mounted externally.

I am quite certain that they sound amazing when the big knob gets rotated clockwise. Especially when there is bourbon in a glass and a Cohiba hearby.

[ka7niq]

The compression driver does both midrange and tweeter duty in a CF 3.

How Crites could have modified your crossovers w/o actually having the speakers there, unless all he did was exchange parts for "better ones" is a question I must ask ?

Unless Crites has worked on developing a Mod for the CF 3's ?

Better parts in the crossover will not, IMHO, and considerable experience, cure what is wrong with the CF 3's.

But running the horn with just a little less level will.

A CF 3 or CF 4, with the horns level reduced just a bit, is an amazingly musical, satisfying speaker.

Stock, it is very intolerant of bad/mediocre recordings.

[Black Hamster]

I fully understand your point of view, no one can argue with the truth. Thank you

[Black Hamster]

Can't understand what you are talking about.

The cf3 blow's anything away, no not making up a story.

Matter of fact, pre 2011...

[Black Hamster]

I don't have to guess, u r correct!

[Automojo]

I know this was a old thread, but got hooked to reading it (as I see there is a pair locally-no affiliation on MSP Craislist-a little high$-wise).

If the tweeter is too hot-just put a high power L-Pad from parts express or the like, between the driver and the crossover and be done with it.

Not rocket science here, and it won't effect the quality of the sound, nor the amplifier damping etc. If the crossovers are damaged-that's another thing-but padding down the tweeter is simple. You could also pad it with a Mills wire wound in parallel or if you really wanted to get elaborate use a non shorting selector switch and a number of different resistors- but the L-pad would seem the easiest, as it would provide a wide range of adjustability. Also the advantage with the lpad is you won't change any realitive crossover points, as a added resistor might, as your changing the impedence the crossover "sees"-it might minor-but something to avoid IMHO-so I would L-pad it.

I think some get to worried about things that will never effect the sound, but would benifit how the speaker sounds in your enviroment. A small hole is all that's required-no big deal.

Some people claim, besides damping, there is a slight phase issue-I can't recall ever hearing this. A too hot tweeter would be more detrimental to the overall sound regarldess. Plus when you max it, it's essentially out of the circuit anyway.

Klipsch should have probably L-padded this- but I can't recall seeing any other Klipsch with level controls. Probably some sort of desing philospthy--who knows. Plenty of speakers in the past had l-pads (especially those incorporating horns) or resistor selectors-the switch can get dirty with age, but a little Deoxit works fine.

[wvu80]

I don't know who found and bumped this 2008 thread, but good job!  I had not seen it before.  The author Ka7niq did an excellent review which stands the test of time.

 

The only minor nit-pic is the port length of the CF-4 Ver 1 is five inches, not six.

 

 

 

[avguytx]

I know I love my CF-3's which are most likely v2 but they sound great. I'm going to try bi-amping them as soon as my Carver M200t gets back from a buddy/tech. 120wpc on high side and Carver M-1.0t MkII on low and at 400wpc should give them enough. But they sound great with low power tube amps too.

[moray james]

Good blast from the past. I just had no real knowledge of the Epic, so it was interesting to read. I guess sales department  was running the show by then?

The Epic Series was Roy Delgado's project and he CF4 was in fact a direct radiator (bass) assault upon the Khorn. After the Epic series Roy and Paul designed the Jubilee then Roy went intop the pro division leaving the finicky home market for good. With some power the CF4 is a real option as it is domestic in size does not require corners and it stages and images better due to a better designed horn. Too bad they did not have the funds to go with a better driver. I have used the EV DH1506 and it eats the stock aluminum neo compression driver. Dealers did not like Epic as it did /does not sound like a Heritage speaker which is true IMO it sounds much better. The CF3/4 remains the Klipsch home speakers with the largest wide band horn to date. I never cared for the off axis response of the WTW configuration preferring the WWT configuration of the KG and KLF series.

I am running two vertical KLF20 woofers with an EV DH1A on top with CF3 networks. I am using a Karlson K-Tube made of paper rather than the CF3 horn. This makes for easy alignment of the comp driver and the woofer voice coils. Best regards Moray James.