colterphoto1 Posted April 6, 2008 Author Share Posted April 6, 2008 I was afraid someone would say that Allan. Do you think the Sansui will be any good? It's 1970's vintage with MC and MM inputs and three way imp. switch for each. That's what I'm thinking of using for now with the Thorens/Grado in the Klipschorn room. Please tell me that'll be 'good enough for now'.... I need to get something going soon.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 I was afraid someone would say that Allan. Do you think the Sansui will be any good? It's 1970's vintage with MC and MM inputs and three way imp. switch for each. That's what I'm thinking of using for now with the Thorens/Grado in the Klipschorn room. Please tell me that'll be 'good enough for now'.... I need to get something going soon.... Sansui gear from the early to mid 70's was VERY good. If everything is up to snuff you'll be OK. Get a moving coil cartridge-- 99 out of 100 times even a "budget" MC is better than a MM at the same price. At least that's how I have ALWAYS felt . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted April 6, 2008 Author Share Posted April 6, 2008 *whew* suggestions on the cartridge? Is there a point of diminishing utility with a mega$ cart with my modest setup? I was ready to buy the Grado Silver or Gold..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 *whew* suggestions on the cartridge? Is there a point of diminishing utility with a mega$ cart with my modest setup? I was ready to buy the Grado Silver or Gold..... I hope you are bucking up under this. I wouldn't say any of the tips you've recieved weren't good ones in one way or the other, but a lot of them are way beyond the basics of what it takes to whup the pants off the most exotic CD player on the planet. There was (as usual) not so much as a recognition of the post I made concerning the dreadful dynamic compression of phonograph records. I am not surprised as for some strange reason this is something most record heads simply ignore. Nonetheless, there is up to 2:1 compression present in phonograph records which is as easy to deal with as the RIAA EQ that's present for the same physical limitations of the medium. No TT/cart at any price can provide anything like a realistic reproduction of music for my ears without a good (not necessarily expensive) preamp/RIAA stage and reversal of the compression. A handful of the finest pressings of all time do not profit much from dynamic reversal, but these are only so due to careful selection of the music such that the dynamic range is within the limits of phonograph technology and limiting the content to much less than the 20 plus minutes most were used to from LPs. . You certainly won't find a realistic pipe organ or Beethoven's ninth in the bunch. Anyway, I hope you are having fun...that IS what it's all about. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted April 7, 2008 Author Share Posted April 7, 2008 Dave, I thought the main point of going 'back' to vinyl was the lack of extremely heavy handed compression that plagues most modern rock music recorded to CD. I'm sure this affects your beloved pipe organ recordings on vinyl as well. Secondly, I have a large (to me) collection of LP's from my youth and enjoy stretching out musically. The only way I can afford to do this (legally) is to get a good quality phonograph going on my limited budget. As a side bar, this might be just the way to get parts of my vinyl collection onto the computer for possibly ressurection of dynamic range. If the 3bx could expand dynamics I'm sure we have some computer program that might do the same. That's the next step. For now I'm just trying to keep the vinyl rotating. By the way, I am looking for a solid single CD transport next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill H. Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 Michael, Just an Idea............ http://www.musicdirect.com/product/72955 Also http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=156260 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 I was afraid someone would say that Allan. Do you think the Sansui will be any good? It's 1970's vintage with MC and MM inputs and three way imp. switch for each. That's what I'm thinking of using for now with the Thorens/Grado in the Klipschorn room. Please tell me that'll be 'good enough for now'.... I need to get something going soon.... OK - this is the one to go for. You can now get a Denon 103 and try it out on the MC input on that receiver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 Michael: The "...extremely heavy handed compression that plagues most modern rock music..." is a product of choice, not a limitation of the medium. The finest audiophile LP's have quite a wide dynamic range, but these are only a handful and they still fall short of digital. The average good quality LP has about 40% less dynamic range than Redbook. Even uncompressed rock still fits within the available quite well, but music with a truly wide range (pipe organ, chamber, Pink Floyd) must be "gain ridden" to limit the range. The only LP's to ever avoid this were the handful of DBX encoded releases back in the late 70's. I've been priviliged to hear one, and they were the best of both worlds. Dead silent and full, uncompressed dynamic range like digital, and the transparency of analog. If your aim is to digitize your vinyl, software is the way to go. Since it's been posted several times before, I am attaching a zip file with my suggestions for successful vinyl archiving. A DBX is a fine thing, but they do require a bit of practice to get right. Like a sub, if you can hear it you don't have it right. Personally, I'd suggest either a 1BX or a 4BX or better. The ones in the middle, especially the 3BX, have quite a curve. Frzinvt is quite a DBX expert whom you might ping if interested. However, you need not worry with it at all if you just digitize. If you go with 24/88.2 I suspect you'll find the results better than listening to the original since you are coming into this without prejudice. Plus, you'll be able to "push and play" with no fiddle factor or concerns about further damage or dirt on your LP's. I do both, but that's because I am a left brain/right brain and can't make up my mind. [:$]. While I have your attention, would you please email me at dave.mallette@hpidc.com? I've something I'd like to discuss with you and respect your "no PM" rubric. Regards, Dave PS - See thread in this forum "OPPOulence" for a solid CD player (SACD, DVD-A, and DVD at no extra charge!) on the cheap. Nobodies returned one yet from what I recall. Archive.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted April 7, 2008 Author Share Posted April 7, 2008 this has me vexed http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/PrintPost.aspx?PostID=46 So the 103, being moving coil, would require the use of the Sansui or other special phono pre-amp. For some reason I think I might perfer to stay with moving magnet which could be retrofitted to other tonearm or used with other electronics more easily. But I'll do some more research. Some of you fellas don't think the Grado would be a wise choice, or is it that there are 'better'? I probably need to stay below $200. Dave, email sent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 Michael, I'd suggest going with the Denon DL-103 with the Sansui, or with any receiver with the use of nu2toobs' cinemag step-up transformers. That was a heck of an offer. I'd also take advantage of Larry's excellent offer to let you try out his 103. IMHO, a no-brainer. Man, people must like you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser SET say Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 So even a good TT with new cart hooked up to a proper receiver input won't be as loud as a CD? What a rip off! LOL What's the point of purchasing receivers that have phono inputs if they're 10db down from the rest of the system? Is there any way other than to buy a separate pre-amp to get more volume? My Sansui AU9900A integrated amp has three position impedance switch, but that's not really input sensitivity per se, is it? Well, if you're counting on the phono section of a "receiver" to drive your "good TT with new cart" you're never going to get there. By the way, my SPU mono with Jorgen Schou step up tranformers going through the phono section of the McIntosh C22 is about 10 db UP from the CD output through the line stage. Thank you Allan, I was hoping someone would open up about Michaels current internal phono card[Y] Michael I'm with Fini in that you should give the offers a shot. I know you don't like hassle but if you could here the 103 step up combo vs. the Grado Prestige series I think you will be swayed[] (this said because you already have a very good transcriber) I have just the opposite scenario in my system Michael my phono rig will absolutely BLOW you out of your chair at the same volume either of my digital units push[] You have far too nice a table to not have a nice MC set up going. I say it's worth a try and if you don't care for it and want hassle free analog you could get yourself a Project Debut III (comes with an excellent Ortofon OM-5 for $299.00) but get yourself a Shure MX97 ($99.00) with a Bellari VP-129 ($250.00), and the Project Speed Box for $129.00. Set this table up on a solid foundation and I promise you something most Audiophiles would never admit too is that for $777.00 you will have an analog rig that sounds within 70% on many a 5G plus rig[] (I'm sure this line alone will open a can of worms especially for those who have invested that 5G+!) No offense Max[:S] I sound so sure of the above combo because I've heard it right up beside to 5G+ rigs and all we did was move the phono leads from one system to other and I don't know for what I can afford I could not justify the additional $4,500.00 but don't get me wrong because a disease is a disease and with that said had I the money we know good and well I'd have the 5G+ rig[:|] LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 this has me vexed http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Forums/PrintPost.aspx?PostID=46 So the 103, being moving coil, would require the use of the Sansui or other special phono pre-amp. For some reason I think I might perfer to stay with moving magnet which could be retrofitted to other tonearm or used with other electronics more easily. But I'll do some more research. Some of you fellas don't think the Grado would be a wise choice, or is it that there are 'better'? I probably need to stay below $200. Dave, email sent. GRADO + THORENS = HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM It's a nightmare combonation in my experience. Never liked Grado cartridges--even the expensive ones. Of course others have different opinions, I'm sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 And why is my TT much lower output through my receiver than CD or DVD player? I have to crank my Yammie up to -15 to get any decent volume, I'd be blown out with a CD at that setting... That's normal. On my Yamaha receiver, CDs sound good at around -30dB, while LPs need to be turned up to -18 to -12dB to get enough volume. Another post mentioned output voltages, but the numbers were off. CD players put out 1-2 volts, while MM cartridges put out only 2-5 millivolts. Your receiver's built-in phono pre-amp will boost that up to usable level, not CD level. More boost might mean more noise, so having to turn up the volume a bit is no big deal, as long as you remember to turn it back down when switching inputs.MC cartridges put out way less than MM catridges and need a separate phono pre-amp to get any decent volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted April 8, 2008 Author Share Posted April 8, 2008 still in indecisive mode. perhaps a couple of those 'trial runs' will show me a thing or two. I was ready to hit the button on the Grado then this MC thing came up... I think I'll at least go ahead with a fresh Stanton 681EEE for the Technics for now. At least I know that combination works. I've been using it for 30 years. Thorens is getting dusty... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted April 8, 2008 Author Share Posted April 8, 2008 and here's where I'll play vinyl....we'll still call it 'The Gallery' because my photo work hangs here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted April 10, 2008 Author Share Posted April 10, 2008 One week later- still no purchase. Got notification that the kindly loaned pre-amp is on the way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted April 10, 2008 Author Share Posted April 10, 2008 Colter, I owned a Grado Blue, Dynavector 10x5, and finally the Denon Dl103R. The 103r was not optimal according to cartridge db with my Rega P3-24, but it blew the doors off of the other two. Even though the 10x5 was supposed to be a match made in heaven for the Rega. My offer still holds. If you want to borrow my Cinemax stepup transformer for the Denon dl103 you won't be dissatisfied. I'd even ship out my DL103 that still plays good,if you want to try this set up.I'm happy with my ZU modded cart,and don't for see using the Stock 103 any time soon.Let know. Larry Yes Larry, the transformer from NU2 is on the way, If this is a matchup I'd love to borrow your cart for a bit. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 Perfect matchup, MC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lwhaples Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Colter, I owned a Grado Blue, Dynavector 10x5, and finally the Denon Dl103R. The 103r was not optimal according to cartridge db with my Rega P3-24, but it blew the doors off of the other two. Even though the 10x5 was supposed to be a match made in heaven for the Rega. My offer still holds. If you want to borrow my Cinemax stepup transformer for the Denon dl103 you won't be dissatisfied. I'd even ship out my DL103 that still plays good,if you want to try this set up.I'm happy with my ZU modded cart,and don't for see using the Stock 103 any time soon.Let know. Larry Yes Larry, the transformer from NU2 is on the way, If this is a matchup I'd love to borrow your cart for a bit. Michael Cool,You'll have to send me your address. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nu2toobs Posted April 11, 2008 Share Posted April 11, 2008 Michael, I didn't think of this till after I sent the transformer. I can send a Dynavector 10x5 also if you would like. Just to get an idea what works best with your system. It's just sitting here collecting dust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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